Hmm...Islam.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by Barnabyhuggins It is time to stop pussyfooting around matters of religious faith - be it Christians, Muslims or Jews etc. Having unjustified belief in unprovable claims while demanding others believe in said claims is an attack upon the core values of rationality and decency. But, the majority of us have adopted the multi-cultural position that Faith is beyond reproach and unattackable. However, when George W. Bush stops stem-cell research because he believes a guy rose from the dead 2000 years ago we cannot sit by and let such absurdities go unattacked. It is time for rationalists, atheists and humanists to go on the offensive.

 

 

The problem is, most rationalists, atheists and humanists don't really wish to organize in any broad political manner - they don't really have an instinctual evangelical attitude. in fact, for humanists and atheists, the evangelical behaviors of the religious are one of the top reasons they don't subscribe to the dogma in the first place.

 

there is no offensive to enact - because there's no broad agreement on issues or platforms. they, and others of these similar minorities merely can only sit by and watch the fundamentalists take each other down, and most likely, the rest of us with them.

[germanicus2112]

I choose not to live in fear of invisible Goblins, Gods, Vampires, Ghouls, Zombies, Fairies, Dragons, Unicorns.

If they are real, great. I will deal with them then. If God is upset at me for me forming an opinion regarding the morality of its actions in the old testament, thats his problem. Im not going to cower from calling a bully a bully just because hes bigger than me.

[papa taco]

Originally posted by germanicus2112 I choose not to live in fear of invisible Goblins, Gods, Vampires, Ghouls, Zombies, Fairies, Dragons, Unicorns. If they are real, great. I will deal with them then. If God is upset at me for me forming an opinion regarding the morality of its actions in the old testament, thats his problem. Im not going to cower from calling a bully a bully just because hes bigger than me.

 

 

You go girl!

Keep in mind that sometimes God appears in the form of white text. White text of which only a few of us enlightened people have access too. Keep this in mind. ps. Have fun in Hell!

[preservation]

i doubt you'll find a human more loving/forgiving/powerful/etc etc etc
than the Christian-Judeo God-
i dunno.
i just know that people will never cease to disappoint and screw up. i am fairly certain that human nature will never just undergo this massive transformation. i don't think humans will eventually just start being kinder to one another, etc etc etc.
leave people alone and see what develops.
i just got sick of hoping that humans would pull through- i got very jaded of how everyone lets you down eventually, so on and so forth...
i think that leads lots of folks to look toward a higher power.

[Barnabyhuggins]

"9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army

[preservation]

i acknowledge some Old Testament stuff can read as absolutely ludicrous when small bits are taken out. just like any book, all of it needs to read to have a better understanding.
also, i've come to acknowledge that whatever seemed unfair/harsh/etc was still the will of God, and i'm in no place to argue. humanity is flawed, and there's no fix to except for Jesus- prophecied in the old testament and fulfilled in the new testament.
just an fyi- thats kind of my stance on it.
God has a plan and i'd rather go with it than stand against it.
it might not make sense until you have a better realization of who/what God is-
i just have to think that though a lot of God's actions are mysterious to me he's got a much better plan than i do. that doesn't mean i have to be a blind follower, i can see why he chooses to do certain things just by having him in my life. thats the thing that sets apart Christ & religion apart for me, is that i've been offered a personal relationship w/ God b/c of Christ's actions.
its not just following a long list of do's and don'ts and trying to convert people.
its tough b/c it gets frustrating to try and explain, esp. on a dumb msg. board i goof off on while @ work - but i can only get upset when i know i was saying the exact same stuff as you guys not even 14 months ago. s'ok. the most important rule i'm told is to love, regardless of what the person says/does/etc b/c you're no less a creation of God than i am.
so all of that weaves in & out of topic, but i can't see the idea of 'loving thy neighbor' as harmful to society, etc.

the problems all of you are seeing are a result of PEOPLE screwing things up, not God's mistakes. its stated over and over that we're given free will in this life, and God wouldn't be just if he intervened and made us puppets. my only somewhat-decent advice is to take a step back and say: "is this a result of a person's actions or did God do this?"

of course i'm really only making a case for God- (JesusChrist) -
i do agree with Islam being a dangerous religion-
at the same time i can't say "Muslims are all evil, they're trying to kill us" etc etc.
and of course many are peaceful, and many want to blow us up. they're still my 'brothers and sisters' however, and i've got to love and respect THEM (not their actions) b/c its one of God's instructions.
its just hard for me to see Christianity lumped in w/ other 'religions' so often when people want to attack religion/religious folk/you-name-it.

[Brian Marshall]

Originally posted by Barnabyhuggins It is time for rationalists, atheists and humanists to go on the offensive.

 

 

You know that will never work... right?

 

If us athiests show up at and speak at an event with a crowd evenly divided among christains, muslims, and hindus, they might actually come together for a few minutes.... to rip our arms off.

[preservation]

[germanicus2112]

Originally posted by preservation i doubt you'll find a human more loving/forgiving/powerful/etc etc etc than the Christian-Judeo God- i dunno. i just know that people will never cease to disappoint and screw up. i am fairly certain that human nature will never just undergo this massive transformation. i don't think humans will eventually just start being kinder to one another, etc etc etc. leave people alone and see what develops. i just got sick of hoping that humans would pull through- i got very jaded of how everyone lets you down eventually, so on and so forth... i think that leads lots of folks to look toward a higher power.

 

 

Humans are not perfect. We dont need to be. We do need however not to cast aside our standards for rational discourse and accountability because we would rather feel 'comforted' by a cosmic guardian angel looking out for each person.

 

I dont need to believe that a perfect being exists to strive towards a more moral/compassionate society/world. I dont at all perceive the god of the old testament as perfect. He was quite cruel in fact, which is rather duplicitous consider he was being cruel after he set up all the rules and players. Its akin to me setting up a line of dominoes in a row and knocking over the first, and then yelling at the one at the end for falling over.

[Brian Marshall]

Originally posted by germanicus2112 To me religion is a crutch man used to first explain the mysterious bumps in the night and the stars in the sky. Then that crutch became a crook to herd his fellow man along, and then a bat to beat them down with. Religion embraces ignorance - Faith - and a zombie mentality. Never look behind the curtain. Who are you to question gods will? Do as your told. Kill the heretic. At the heart of Islam is the same set of principles : Do this or else, this is the only way, all the others are wrong, spread our way by book or by sword. Just as the spanish inquisition or crusades, or countless forgotten village, towns, communes that were 'enlightened/saved' by 'missionaries' spreading their own brand of foul ignorance. Religion is one the greatest threats to the progression of mankind. It stands in the way of scientific investigation, and spreads fear, hate, and intolerance. It exists only to control and propagate itself. Throw away the crutches. Look behind the curtain. Hold accountable those who shun it and hide behind their Invisible Sky Bullies.

 

 

I can agree with your premise, and i used to agree with your solution, but the truth is, I think a lot of people out there would not be able to handle the idea of their life being inconsequential and with out the context of an afterlife.

 

Pat Robertson once said something like 'i just dont see how athiests or agnostics could possibly have any moral grounding'

[preservation]

i can respect your comments, but you know i have to disagree.(RE: God being anything other than just/perfect/etc - like i said its tough to have a good understanding w/out being somewhat familiar with the old testament AND having a relationship with God)
--
and no, you don't need to cast aside our standards for rational discourse and accountability because[you] would rather feel 'comforted' by a cosmic guardian angel looking out for [you],
BUT
that just reminds me of where we get the idea of rational discourse and accountability. i don't agree with what i think* you're saying (*"i don't need God- if he exists") but i am glad to know that you're willing to keep those 2 things as standards in your daily life. (i mean thats honestly admirable, no sarcasm here.)

but yeah, i know we don't need to be perfect. i mean you can see from just living that we *can't* be no matter how hard we try.

but my whole deal is that God set up these rules, and we didn't/haven't/are not obeying them. he knew that were flawed and out of his love for us gave us a way out of being forever seperated from his presence. thats where grace is introduced as another facet of his love, stuff you may have heard billions of times.

[Brian Marshall]

I remember in third grade, i punched a kid in the face because he told me santaclause wasnt real.

[sonaboy]

in regards to preservation's comment:

that's great and all - but it doesn't matter if it's "god's fault" or not.

any societal movement against PEOPLE who act irrationally and violently in the name of jesus are automatically labeled as people who are "godless, anti-christian, hateful" or worse.

there's no trump for anything done in the name of a spiritual belief, no matter how {censored}ing stupid.
if you try and be too rational without dogma, you begin to hear the spit and bile as "faithful" hiss "secular humanist" in your midst.

burying your head in the spiritual sand and claiming that you believe god has a better plan is just another way of disconnecting from any responsibility in detering actions by people who share a version of your faith. it does nothing, except allow the warriors in your midst an open doorway to conquest, just as the fringe elements of Islam rely on the humbled to turn their eyes aside, as they enact whatever twisted horrors they can get away with in the name of their god. fundamentalists surrounded by foxhole faithful - a most dangerous combination.

under the banner of "faith" - everything any human does in the name of his god is forgivable, andtherefore, it can eventually be accepted, because ultimately, he is not responsible. all he has to do is believe.

which brings us to people like Barnaby, who are FORCED to make a call for sanity through reason, calling out that the emperor truly wears no clothes, because {censored} is getting dangerous again as the fundamentalists leap for the brass ring of mutual destruction.

all of that, just to get back to "i believe god has a better plan."
what good is a plan when the only people who can actually put it into action here on earth can't even understand what the coach is saying?

[preservation]

and brian, let me just make CLEAR to you that i don't hold Pat Robertson in very high regard, just in case you were wondering.
i don't like the fact that someone like him
is involved with politics & media speaking on behalf of Christians and/or Christ.
i don't think God approves of how Robertson acts or lots of what he says.

[germanicus2112]

I dont understand why people feel it an aberration that an atheist could have moral groundings. I simply believe that it is wrong/distasteful to do harm to fellow human beings. I dont need the threat of a hades/hell eternal punishment to recognize that we must punish those who break the law, that we must make sacrifices for those who are less fortunate than us, and that just because one wants some personal gratification doesnt justify that it is permissible in a societal context if it harms others.

Humans create our own justice and balance.
Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Why isnt that enough? Do religious individuals only follow the laws out of fear of punishment? If that is so, they are the last to be claiming others as immoral.

As long as people continue to give this deference to "faith" as something to be revered, instead of something that should be called out for what it is (ignorance), then we go nowhere.

[preservation]

all of that, just to get back to "i believe god has a better plan."

God doesn't need us to put his plans into action. at the same time i believe there are many that DO understand him when he speaks.
claiming that God has a plan is in no way burying my head in the sand. burying my head would be me not saying a single thing at all or taking the time to make a case for God on this little message board.

i don't go around labeling people as 'Godless', and i'm not considering myself above anybody else b/c of my faith.
i don't understand how its OK for you to make that generalization.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by germanicus2112 I dont understand why people feel it an aberration that an atheist could have moral groundings.

 

 

I don't either - there have been courts of law established well before any western church rose to power, based on any number of ideals.

culture defines justice, not the big bearded guy in the sky.

[preservation]

As long as people continue to give this deference to "faith" as something to be revered, instead of something that should be called out for what it is (ignorance), then we go nowhere.

 

 

calling out faith as ignorance is mighty lofty of you. there are many things you can't prove to exist but you still believe are there. you do not have material evidence for everything you have confidence in being true, yet that doesn't stop you from being confident.

[preservation]

I dont understand why people feel it an aberration that an atheist could have moral groundings.

 

 

me neither.

[preservation]

anyway i'm leaving work a bit early today but if this thread is still alive tonight or tomorrow i'll probably have some more to say i guess.
all i can say now is that as soon as i had my mind made up about God is when things started to change. don't confuse people's actions in the name of God for God's actions. don't think that Pat Robertson speaks for me b/c we are both 'Christians'.
and please don't think i've got my mind made up about any of you guys b/c of your points-of-views or beliefs, etc.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by preservation God doesn't need us to put his plans into action. at the same time i believe there are many that DO understand him when he speaks. claiming that God has a plan is in no way burying my head in the sand. burying my head would be me not saying a single thing at all or taking the time to make a case for God on this little message board. i don't go around labeling people as 'Godless', and i'm not considering myself above anybody else b/c of my faith. i don't understand how its OK for you to make that generalization.

i don't understand how it's OK for you to make that generalization of Islam, since you don't consider yourself above anyone else.

you basically stated that you consider Islam to be a "dangerous religion" yet fail to recognize the same elements within your own.
same with Robertson...he's a nutbag and you agree.
but how did he arise to prominence within the church, when it's obvious that he speaks for so few?
perhaps it's from the "i believe god has a plan" method i described above - in which the warriors rely on the turned heads of the humble to give way to conquest, always in the name of the shared god, no matter how vile.

fundamentalism is the enemy of civilization. we are beset by it on all sides.
we need to start cleaning house before unwelcome guests begin burning it down.

[preservation]

i didn't make a generalization about Islam.
i said i think its a dangerous religion.
and what are the same dangerous elements believing in Jesus Christ ?

you're telling me what i've said when i don't even know what you're talking about yet.

same with Robertson...he's a nutbag and you agree. but he rose to prominence from the same belief that "it's not for me to do anything about, god has a plan for him."

thats not my entire belief, and i think he rose to prominence from a lot more than that. my instructions are to love, pure and simple. i'm to let people know 'the good news' as some like to call it whenever they are receptive to hearing it.

[germanicus2112]

Originally posted by preservation i acknowledge some Old Testament stuff can read as absolutely ludicrous when small bits are taken out. just like any book, all of it needs to read to have a better understanding. also, i've come to acknowledge that whatever seemed unfair/harsh/etc was still the will of God, and i'm in no place to argue.

Why not argue? Why not demand an explanation? If one, even smallest part is ludicrous, and an affront to what you know and have experienced as a human being living in our physical world, how can you mitigate that and conveniently ignore it? How can you know what is truely claimed unless you take every sentence as the whole pure truth?

If the Boss did something that doesnt comport with what he has said or preached, should we not take notice and raise our voices? Does not our burden as intellectuals with the capacity for such self analysis demand we always look behind the curtain?
Why worship what is clearly an imperfect god? Why does god need to be worshipped in the first place? Why does god murder innocent children (first born sons of egyptians during the exodus)?

Why waste our time worshipping when we can actually be out helping our fellow man. Imagine the combined wealth held by the religious organizations around the world. Imagine this applied to assisting those less fortunate, not building giant monuments because an ancient book said to.

Are we but the pawns in gods cosmic game?

I agree that you need to look at the entirety of the book to have a better understanding. The entirety IMO being the sociological/anthropological history of the formation of the bible itself. An accumulation of the myths of various different tribes living within relative close proximity. The incorporation of the mythologies of various groups into one new mythology.

[germanicus2112]

Originally posted by preservation calling out faith as ignorance is mighty lofty of you. there are many things you can't prove to exist but you still believe are there. you do not have material evidence for everything you have confidence in being true, yet that doesn't stop you from being confident.

 

 

Such as?

There are things I accept but in every one of them, I am confident (due to first hand experience) that given the proper tools, I could verify. Additionally I am confident that others have repeatidly verified these things, because there is an open discourse. This standard is not present in regards to religious beliefs. Its founded upon not HAVING to bear the burden of accountability. Its been written in to the rules (faith)!

 

Do you challenge the notion that faith is ignorance? Is your statement that this is something that we should revere? Belief in something without any tangible evidence? Why is such a belief, regarding the nature and meaning of life itself, given this trump card, yet we never hold such a weak standard to any other part of our lives. Explain why having belief in something without reproducibility is lofty and exhalted? I truly dont understand. Why celebrate a lazy lack of knowledge? Why NOT eat from the tree of knowledge?

 

The only motivation one has for hiding whats behind the curtain is because they are afraid of being exposed, that theres either something different than what people have been told, or nothing there at all.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by preservation and what are the same dangerous elements believing in Jesus Christ ?

 

 

because both faiths breed fundamentalists that are allowed into power.

 

the generous nature of the moderate religious has many times been malformed to allow the more dangerous elements to cloak themselves in the faithful to fend off inquiry and exposure by the secular element (i.e. the rationalists and humanists).

 

this has basically happened to Muslims, and fringe elements are also appearing to gain power in the West as well.

 

i'm not commenting on your specific personal spiritual journey per se, but on the original comments by Barnaby that you happened to take issue with.

keep that in mind.