Hmm...Islam.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by germanicus2112 Explain why having belief in something without reproducibility is lofty and exhalted? I truly dont understand.

 

 

Because often, in our limited abilities, faith serves us UNTIL we find the answer.

it's needed as a catalyst to many things.

 

things like science, things like work, things like enduring a disease.

 

faith has a purpose, and it can be lofty in its aims. it's no substitute for proof.

but it CAN be used for other things aside from shielding us from an inevitable truth, or comforting us in the darkness of ignorance.

[Ultra.Fuzz]

So, tell me...

Does It exists and why?

Really, I need to know.

?

I find these things interesting...

[beezdeez]

Originally posted by Esperanto I've lived in a Mid East...and you sound like an ignorant brainwashed kid that doesn't know a damn thing about Islam You're experience with Islam is a propoganda group at your school? Are you joking? Maybe they can bake cookies and you'll convert to their death cult My Dad was in medicine..and spent his time putting back together muslims that didn't know how to read...but certainly knew how to fight...stab...poison....shoot....mortar etc..each other to death There was also the occassional beaten woman treatment...But that was only when they weren't Muslim enough...which was every woman we knew in the Muslim world..They all get beat..ALL of them..It's like a {censored}ing sport in Muslim countries 2 years was enough..we left...and never went back or felt sorry for those piece of {censored} throat-cutters ever again Actually, I take that back...We felt sorry for the women. They don't deserve to be treated like that.. and we also felt sorry for the kids that were playing in raw sewage and not allowed to do anything other than recite the Koran..They didn't deserve that miserable treatment Muslim men can burn in hell for what they've done to their women and children And they can stay out of America...and they can stay out of Canada

 

 

 

Well it shows a lot about a person who quickly resorts to insults in a disagreement. Congratulations on showing your ass.

 

You are right. I'm an ignorant kid who had the balls to walk up to a group of Muslims on my own {censored}ing accord and ask them about something I didn't understand.

 

I'm just glad I don't have to live such a miserable life, fearing everything all the way to my death.

 

I suggest you read "False Alarm: The Truth About the Epidemic of Fear" by Marc Siegel. You'll learn a lot about yourself and why you think the way you think.

 

You know what, I'm not going to even say you are wrong in believing what you believe. I think that it's a very destructive ideal, but people are too stubborn to actually try to think about something that evokes strong emotions, such as this.

 

So I'll be fine baking cookies with the Muslim propagandha group. And you'll be fine watching your back when you see a Middle Easterner walking down the street.

[beezdeez]

You all should read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balbir_Singh_Sodhi

[Ultra.Fuzz]

I think it's quite amusing that most civilizations were made by foreigners.

Take USA for an example.

[GuyaGuy]

Originally posted by germanicus2112 To me religion is a crutch man used to first explain the mysterious bumps in the night and the stars in the sky. Then that crutch became a crook to herd his fellow man along, and then a bat to beat them down with. Religion embraces ignorance - Faith - and a zombie mentality. Never look behind the curtain. Who are you to question gods will? Do as your told. Kill the heretic. At the heart of Islam is the same set of principles : Do this or else, this is the only way, all the others are wrong, spread our way by book or by sword. Just as the spanish inquisition or crusades, or countless forgotten village, towns, communes that were 'enlightened/saved' by 'missionaries' spreading their own brand of foul ignorance. Religion is one the greatest threats to the progression of mankind. It stands in the way of scientific investigation, and spreads fear, hate, and intolerance. It exists only to control and propagate itself. Throw away the crutches. Look behind the curtain. Hold accountable those who shun it and hide behind their Invisible Sky Bullies.

 

come now. religion gave birth to the printing press, the first modern mass medium. protestantism gave birth to modern democracy. the renaissance wouldn't have existed without the catholic power structure of the time. and these are just examples in the western world in one era. every golden age is strongly associated with a religion. the religion of the ancient greeks was an integral part of their sciences, philosophy, and art.

and just as many people accept blindly their atheism or nihilism or racism or moral system or any other Weltanschauung as religious men accept their belief system. by which i mean to say that it makes just as much sense for a religious man to say to an atheist: "Throw away the crutches. Look behind the curtain."

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by GuyaGuy come now. religion gave birth to the printing press, the first modern mass medium. protestantism gave birth to modern democracy. the renaissance wouldn't have existed without the catholic power structure of the time. and these are just examples in the western world in one era. every golden age is strongly associated with a religion. the religion of the ancient greeks was an integral part of their sciences, philosophy, and art. and just as many people accept blindly their atheism or nihilism or racism or moral system or any other Weltanschauung as religious men accept their belief system. by which i mean to say that it makes just as much sense for a religious man to say to an atheist: "Throw away the crutches. Look behind the curtain."

 

 

incorrect - knowledge and scientific trial and error gave birth to the printing press. no one "ritualized" a printing press into existence through faith. just because a religious person invented something doesn't mean they didn't use scientific methods to construct and perfect the machinery.

 

the roman empire was the first example of modern representative republic with ties to western thought.

 

the rennaisance was a direct by-product of the humanist school of thought, in direct opposition to church tenets, and was fueled by the need of the ruling Euro elite to break from the doldrums of the Dark Ages and study the classic texts of the Romans and Greeks - hardly christian in nature.

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by beezdeez Well it shows a lot about a person who quickly resorts to insults in a disagreement. Congratulations on showing your ass. You are right. I'm an ignorant kid who had the balls to walk up to a group of Muslims on my own {censored}ing accord and ask them about something I didn't understand. I'm just glad I don't have to live such a miserable life, fearing everything all the way to my death. I suggest you read "False Alarm: The Truth About the Epidemic of Fear" by Marc Siegel. You'll learn a lot about yourself and why you think the way you think. You know what, I'm not going to even say you are wrong in believing what you believe. I think that it's a very destructive ideal, but people are too stubborn to actually try to think about something that evokes strong emotions, such as this. So I'll be fine baking cookies with the Muslim propagandha group. And you'll be fine watching your back when you see a Middle Easterner walking down the street.

 

 

you're the one who is taking the side of a religion that teaches its children to hate Jews

 

You're damn right I hate jew-hating nazis...

 

Move to Saudi Arabia...traitor

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by beezdeez You all should read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balbir_Singh_Sodhi

 

 

you should read this

 

your muslim "friends" at work

[beezdeez]

Originally posted by Esperanto you're the one who is taking the side of a religion that teaches its children to hate Jews

 

 

Actually I take no side of any religion. But thanks for asking to clarify that. I merely said that it was irrational to generalize every Muslim as a bad person. I disagree with Islam just as much as I disagree with Judaism, Christianity, etc.

 

 

Originally posted by Esperanto You're damn right I hate jew-hating nazis...

 

 

Okay. This seems a little contradictory.

 

 

Originally posted by Esperanto Move to Saudi Arabia...traitor

 

 

So I guess supporting freedom of religion and freedom of speech, two very important points in this country makes me a traitor. Why is it that I didn't call you a traitor, despite your obvious disagreement with freedom of religion in America? Because I think you have the right to have an opinion. I'm no traitor, but you seem so ready to kick everyone out that disagrees with you. Hey, didn't you throw around the term Nazi above? It's interesting how you use that to disgrace someone, but you seems so ready to "cleanse" America.

[bucky]

Originally posted by Esperanto you're the one who is taking the side of a religion that teaches its children to hate Jews You're damn right I hate jew-hating nazis... Move to Saudi Arabia...traitor

 

 

Dude... what the hell? You have gone off the deep end.

[beezdeez]

Originally posted by Esperanto you should read this your muslim "friends" at work

I'm bored with you. You haven't read a {censored}ing thing I've typed. Or maybe you just didn't comprehend any of it.

Sorry you are so stubborn.

[ChitownTerror]

Originally posted by Esperanto you're the one who is taking the side of a religion that teaches its children to hate Jews You're damn right I hate jew-hating nazis... Move to Saudi Arabia...traitor

 

 

If you want to get techinical about it, devout muslims shouldn't hate Jews and Christians. It's right in the Quran:

 

"We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam). (Surat Al Imran; 3:84). "

 

The Anti-semetism you see in Islam has a much deeper roots than religion, much as anti-semetism in Christianity tends to run more to local bias than any real basis in scripture.

 

And there's certianly still some Christian anti-semitism out there. Russia, for example, is under-going a huge resurgance of hate crimes. Not that you'll mention it, of course. But if you're going to go after Muslims as a whole, you'd better get ready to go against Eastern Europeans as a whole too.

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by bucky Dude... what the hell? You have gone off the deep end.

 

 

you're not aware of what Muslim imams preach should happen to Israel?

 

Have you ever lived in a muslim country...and seen muslim jew-hating for yourself?

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by beezdeez I'm bored with you. You haven't read a {censored}ing thing I've typed. Or maybe you just didn't comprehend any of it. Sorry you are so stubborn.

I'm sorry you're not locked up in Guantanamo Bay with your muslim terrorist friends

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by ChitownTerror If you want to get techinical about it, devout muslims shouldn't hate Jews and Christians. It's right in the Quran: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam). (Surat Al Imran; 3:84). " The Anti-semetism you see in Islam has a much deeper roots than religion, much as anti-semetism in Christianity tends to run more to local bias than any real basis in scripture. And there's certianly still some Christian anti-semitism out there. Russia, for example, is under-going a huge resurgance of hate crimes. Not that you'll mention it, of course. But if you're going to go after Muslims as a whole, you'd better get ready to go against Eastern Europeans as a whole too.

 

 

again...you are just repeating things that you've heard on tv and read on the net

 

Have you ever lived in a 99% muslim country?

[ChitownTerror]

Also, these quotes from the Qu'ran might be relevant to the discussion at hand:

" Those with Faith, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who have Faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow. (Surat al-Baqara; 2:62)."

" Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, 'We have Faith in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him. (Surat al-`Ankabut; 29:46)."

I'm not going to argue about what the local imams are or aren't preaching (due in part to the massive variation among decentralized religions like Islam), but, in the text, there's many indications that Christians and Jews are not to be considered infidels.

Why they ARE considered infidels by some Muslims has almost nothing to do with religion, and more to do with colonialism, invasion, poverty, and/or regional power struggles.

[ChitownTerror]

Originally posted by Esperanto again...you are just repeating things that you've heard on tv and read on the net Have you ever lived in a 99% muslim country?

 

 

Actually, I'm quoting from a copy of the Qur'an. You CAN read can't you? Or does that get in the way of your flame jihad?

[GuyaGuy]

Originally posted by sonaboy incorrect - knowledge and scientific trial and error gave birth to the printing press. no one "ritualized" a printing press into existence through faith. just because a religious person invented something doesn't mean they didn't use scientific methods to construct and perfect the machinery.

 

 

you're viewing religion as a kind of magic; i'm talking about religion as a social force, as per germanicus2112's comments.

 

that's like arguing that no it wasn't Edison who invented the light bulb but a lot of sweat, experimenting, and happy accidents. it's not just that the person was religious; the printing press (moveable type) has religious reasons for its existence.

 

 

 

Originally posted by sonaboy the roman empire was the first example of modern representative republic with ties to western thought.

 

 

 

that's why i wrote "modern" democracy. protestantism was a democratic movement. our country is proof of that.

 

 

 

Originally posted by sonaboy the rennaisance was a direct by-product of the humanist school of thought, in direct opposition to church tenets, and was fueled by the need of the ruling Euro elite to break from the doldrums of the Dark Ages and study the classic texts of the Romans and Greeks - hardly christian in nature.

 

 

 

right. but the two aren't mutually exclusive. in fact, that's much of the thinking behind the renaissance: a marriage of modern christianity with ancient humanism, a god-approved humanism, the glory of humanity as evidence of the glory of god. etc.

in any case without the power structure of the Church, the Euro elite would've lacked the funds to do much. no texts of the ancients to read, no money for the starving artists and architects.

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by ChitownTerror Actually, I'm quoting from a copy of the Qur'an. You CAN read can't you? Or does that get in the way of your flame jihad?

 

 

I've read the koran many times when I studied overseas

 

That's okay...you're a reasonable guy...I'm not angry at you

 

Travel the muslim world a bit...go where the tourists don't go...go to the poor villages...stay out of the big cities ... and then you may have a different opinion of Islam

 

until then...I guess you can read books that are fantasies...and watch tv shows that are hallucinations...and you can think you're an expert

[ChitownTerror]

Originally posted by Esperanto I've read the koran many times when I studied overseas That's okay...you're a reasonable guy...I'm not angry at you Travel the muslim world a bit...go where the tourists don't go...go to the poor villages...stay out of the big cities ... and then you may have a different opinion of Islam until then...I guess you can read books that are fantasies...and watch tv shows that are hallucinations...and you can think you're an expert

 

 

Yeah, there's anti-Semitic Muslims. There's anti-semites among all sorts of religions. I know that. Living in certain parts of rural American will teach you about anti-semites of all stripes REAL quick.

 

That's not the point I was making. My point is that the racism is culturally rooted, not historically or religiously. But, hey, distort my quotes, kiddo. Anything that makes you happy.

 

Do you know who gave the Jews sanctuary when they were kicked out of Christendom? The Spanish Muslim Moors. Certain Sultinates also were safer havens for Jews in ancient times than Europe.

 

I'm not apologizing for Muslim attrocities, just as you're not mentioning Christian {censored}ups. I'm just saying that anti-Semmitism and killing of innocents shouldn't have any validity to any Muslim who's seriously studied the Qu'ran.

 

But, go on being a jackass.

[Esperanto]

Originally posted by ChitownTerror But, go on being a jackass.

 

 

lovely

[ChitownTerror]

Originally posted by Esperanto lovely

 

 

You'd be a lot cooler to have a discussion with if you'd actually address points you know. That's why I'm coming down harsh on you.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by GuyaGuy you're viewing religion as a kind of magic; i'm talking about religion as a social force, as per germanicus2112's comments. No - i'm seriously not - you're just failing to note the difference between religion and a sense of determined conviction using scientific principles. "religion" did NOT put this machine into existence - knowledge did. religious groups may have commissioned men to devise a way to create the actual machine, but they didn't just WILL THIS MACHINE INTO EXISTENCE by divine power. that's ridiculous. that's like arguing that no it wasn't Edison who invented the light bulb but a lot of sweat, experimenting, and happy accidents. no, in fact i was arguing the opposite - go read what i said again. i argued that Edison invented the lightbulb using scientific experiments, determination and refinement - the fact that he was a religious man has absolutely nothing to do with whether the device came about. same with the printing press. that's why i wrote "modern" democracy. protestantism was a democratic movement. our country is proof of that. our country evolved out of a democratic representative republic, directly modeled after roman representative society (civile Quiritium), all the way down to the slave class, a people of property in the care of the ruling class. any system passed to us through European rule, directly came to us through study of the roman system of law. The roman system (and ours, by lineage), is actually based not on laws refined by the christian church, but a set of ancient laws known as the Code of Hammurabi, which predates christianity by about 1700 years. Protestantism only changed the power structure of the church, not the entire system of government by the ruling class. right. but the two aren't mutually exclusive. in fact, that's much of the thinking behind the renaissance: a marriage of modern christianity with ancient humanism, a god-approved humanism, absolutely incorrect - the fact that christianity (protestantism) was paired with the humanist movement was more residue of luck, than design. the humanist movement in fact, was vigorously fought by the Jesuits, the intellectual arm of the Catholic Church designed to construct competing theories and systems, most famously illustrated by the trials of Gallileo. in fact, this episode basically laid bare the differences between the church in power, and the emerging class of scholars who wished to seek absolute truth. at many points, they were incompatible. in any case without the power structure of the Church, the Euro elite would've lacked the funds to do much. no texts of the ancients to read, no money for the starving artists and architects.

 

 

 

this is pure speculation.

the church was not the sole source (nor even the major source) of private enterprise during the rennaisance, again don't mistake material wealth and determination of an elite class with "religion" or even official church sanctioning.

[Ultra.Fuzz]

I wonder why your nickname is Esperanto...