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Most religions are good, as they give (good) guidelines for people to follow.

The structure, the part that involves human beings and power, is bad though - as it leads to blindness and all kinds of extremism.

All I can see is people bending the words - or The Word, if you will - in favor of the wrong purposes.

It's human nature and it's historical.

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i agree U.F, but just b/c human nature does all this doesn't mean it makes direct sense to abandon the pursuit of God.
i agree with the statement about power...
the more a person has it, the greater the chance of its abuse (power that is).
thats why Jesus would say that its harder for a rich person to get into heaven -
its proven that oftentimes when people are in powerful positions they think they are capable of holding that power themselves, making their own decisions, and seeking *more* power.
thats basically doing away with God, and
doing away with God often revokes that power (not always, but sometimes).

just for example thats my problem w/ Pat Robertson- i think he's too caught up in his own political agenda & w/ politics in general than he is w/ listening to what God has to say. many regard him as a figurehead for modern christianity which is just plain sad.
thats why i'm sort of trying to post from the perspective of a young Christian, as it may shed some light on how other christians feel about whats going in the church/politics/faith/etc

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Originally posted by Ultra.Fuzz

Most religions are good, as they give (good) guidelines for people to follow.


The structure, the part that involves human beings and power, is bad though - as it leads to blindness and all kinds of extremism.


All I can see is people bending the words - or The Word, if you will - in favor of the wrong purposes.


It's human nature and it's historical.

 

 

i would disagree - i would revise that to say "most senses of spirituality are good, as they give people a sense of healthy reflection, which builds good guidelines for them to follow."

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Originally posted by sonaboy


now you're completely ignoring what i originally said. what is the problem with conceding that RELIGION was not the primary catalyst of invention? that argument is ridiculous. it may have been the inspiration, but not the design.

and how it is used is NOT the issue - what guides invention is the original point of dispute. scientific design and refinement made the machine in theory, a builder's work constructed it - whoever commissioned the work is irrelevant. if you take "religion" out of the picture, the physical properties and actual item STILL WORKS and EXISTS



the issue is ALWAYS how it's used. an invention and its use are not separable. countries of the allied forces and the axis were working hard to develop television as a form of mass propaganda. that's the ideology behind the medium. and the ideology exists to this day. only the power has shifted from federal to corporate. take away propaganda from TV and it's no longer TV.


Originally posted by sonaboy


great - as long as we both understand that protestantism didn't CREATE the system of democracy like you first claimed..., and merely imitated it, then we're good. thanks for taking the long way around to agreeing with me.


and where did i claim that protestantism created the democratic system? :confused:
if you'll go back to the post you started the debate about you'll read that i referred to "modern democracy." you weren't arguing against my point that protestants invented democracy BECAUSE I NEVER SAID THAT. :rolleyes:


here's the quote...


Originally posted by GuyaGuy


protestantism gave birth to modern democracy.



yep. sounds about right.

Originally posted by sonaboy


it's important to give credit where credit is due for initiating a system of government and law, and protestantism didn't initiate the idea or practice of the modern democracy - it had already been put in place centuries before.



yes. more than a millenium and a half before.
but if we're to give credit where credit is due then we also have to thank the romans for giving us the imperial system that persevered in the western world for a couple of millenia.



Originally posted by sonaboy


what's important is who's right.

beliefs and authority change with culture, but math is forever.

and once again, we now come full circle to why fundamentalism is so dangerous and the darkness it brings needs to be actively oppressed by the light of reasoning and those who have a better understanding of things. fundamentalism worships power and authority, not progression through proof.

understand i'm not necessarily lumping protestantism in with fundamentalism.

but that doesn't mean that both arms wouldn't unite in a stranglehold if this was needed to maintain power and influence over logical reasoning.


if you want to raise the importance of WHAT people believe, over the actual facts being debated and how they change the world, then it sounds like you'll be quite the apologist in about 60 years, when the fundamentalist challenges to the school of evolution are finally seen for what they are.


will you focus on the religious affiliations of the evolutionary proponents, and say, "See? they were right AND they were also men of faith. religion put the modern evolutionary theory into the books." ?

your stance on Galileo is just as revisionary.



math is not forever. as an example, the romans had no concept of zero. this we inherited from east indians. or think of euclidean vs. non-euclidean geometry. it's beyond my mathematical abilities but apparently, from what i understand, beyond certain numbers (the REALLY big ones) the normal rules of addition, subtraction, and multiplicaiton don't apply.
history is always revisionary. just like mathematics, art history, cultural studies, philosophy, and the history of television sitcoms. no getting around that. every sorry generation thinks they have enough perspective and knowledge to see what's right.
at the end of the day the only ones who are right are us--until we pass away and our sons and grandsons discover our mistakes and preconceived notions.
progress? not really.
just change.

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