Members Tony Scharf Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 I will upgrade to Vista soon. I'm a developer of Windows apps and need to stay current with new technology to keep my job. In fact, I've been running Vista since its first beta, back when it was called Longhorn. I get five licenses to virtually every Microsoft product as part of my MSDN subscription.The catch? Not on my home machine. I will NOT upgrade my music computer until absolutely necessary. It runs XP right now and virtually screams performance-wise. No need to fix what ain't broke. +1 I have an MSDN account too, but havnt had the time to mess with vista yet. I work on business apps, and everyone in my company is running XP still, and will be for at least the next year or so. Ill probably end up getting a new laptop next year with it on there so I can test the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Scharf Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 the number of lines of code is very relevantWindows wins the higher number by a huge figure why is it relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 MIDI timing isn't better under those OS's. The problem with midi timing on windows is a combination of factors. First off there are a couple of different ways to implement midi. The older way is more stable but has a higher more consistant latency. I'm still running WFW311 for MIDI because 1) it ain't broke so why fix it and 2) I have zero latency problems, and I'm pushing 32 MIDI channels (music quest mqx32m with dual independent MIDI outputs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 why is it relevant? Kinda waiting to hear this one too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Simple example is one of our customers upgraded their billing systems to SAP over the holidays. We are their top supplier, they are not able to actually pay for our products and services yet since the upgrade. They "hope" to be able to start paying us again sometime in February. We are talking about a fortune 100 company that we do millions of dollars of business with a week not some fly by night place. If we were a smaller supplier we would probably have been put out of business because some moron decided to do an "upgrade".This is too scarily similar - you and I appear to do business with the same Fortune 100 company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members filterthing Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 This is just showing ignorance and that your being sucked in by Apple's marketting. I've spent 0 time with virus programs, windows settings or incompatabilities. I don't even run a virus checker as there isn't a need to even with a machine that does email and internet. It's very easy to turn off a few features in your email client and web browser and you don't have to worry about viruses or spyware. That is what I was trying to say, mac users can't accept it. One is not better than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WhinyLittleRunt Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 I remember running Windows Whistler (the code-named XP) in 2001 and thought it was slow, unusable, and unstable. I didn't like the idea of digitally signed drivers f'ing up my installs, or the pretty interface slowing down the graphics card. But, sometime in mid-2002 I ran a clean install of Windows XP Pro and realized that THIS is the ultimate OS (well, from Microsoft, that is). I've been really happy with XP ever since and it's only gotten better.Remember, one of the issues when XP first came out was that certain apps were incompatible, as well as drivers. People trashed XP because their own machines were leftovers from the win98 era. Once they upgraded to newer, faster machines, they noticed the difference in performance and suddenly all these cool features that they originally hated, began to make sense now that they had the means of running them.The same goes for Vista. I ran Longhorn 2 years ago for a while, played with all the betas for a while, and got the RTM of Vista the day it was released in Nov. Vista is an ongoing project - it has to be released at some point, whether all the bugs have been worked out or not. that was the obvious purpose of beta versions. The RTM, for example, was dramatically improved since beta 2. Microsoft continuously works at these issues to solve them, and for that I give them credit, despite the fact that they continue to monopolize the computer world. Point is, that give it a few months, get a more powerful machine, and you will be happy with Vista. The major difference this time around is the way the file system is set up, + the fact that it's slightly more secure right off the bat than XP. Give it some time and you will all be perfectly happy with it, but right now it's just too soon. I removed Vista from my machine and loaded XP back on it because I wasn't digging the crashes. XP is probably the most stable OS I've ever used, and I'm perfectly happy with it. Vista will be fine but the impulse has to be subdued for the moment Like I said, the difference this time is the file system. Everything else is just gimmick; right down to the URGE music store icon just embedded right the {censored} into the Wimdows Media Player 11.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XorAxAx Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 the number of lines of code is very relevantWindows wins the higher number by a huge figure I'm not so sure about that. Do you know what's under the hood of your OS X? Lots of BSD code. Lots of NeXTSTEP code. Aqua. CoreWhatever. iLife. Safari. Mail. Yes, I think that there are several metric buttloads of code in OS X.Not that it's important. While we're at it, do you know how many times Saddam Hussein urinated at less than 33 degrees latitude during the Apollo 11 mission while contemplating the lifestyle of Peruvian farmers? I'll bet he did it more than Jean Chr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khazul Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Large IT organisations have to play it safe, because if you even have the gall to change the color scheme one bit, dozens of murderous secretaries will be making the support staff's life a living hell. Yes - because large IT organisations are generally maintained by idiots (who are managed and funded by people with even greater levels of stupidity) with barely the knowledge to plug the damn thing into a wall outlet, and no funds to train the useless poor sods to be anything more useful, or sadly even fund the lead to simply shoot them with and get someone else in... It doesnt have to be that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Well, since we're now ripping IT, here's the problem: Technical schools constantly pound the US radiowaves with a message that says, "Get your MCSE in 90 days and you'll be making money hand over fist asap!" - and it is working. Over the past couple years, a rapidly increasing number of the IT folks I run across are this new breed of paper-holding "experts" with no practical experience. But man, can they do the bureaucracy thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khazul Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Thast no different to all education+examination systems. The problem is that change is happenning way too fast for the examinations to keep up with.What was best practice last year might be a crap way of doing this this year - new products, new approaches and new problems - but relating back to my previous comment... its still *way way* better than most of the completely hosed approaches I get called in to sort out (or just laugh at) regularly...On the bureaucracy thing - yeh - how true - the whole indutry now values bull{censored} way above real technical skills - quite understandable really when you think how most of these peope are now managed and measured.Manager is typically someone with at best some people management / hr skills - if your lucky. Probably a failed project manager moved sidewise, or some other failure moved sidewise... as no self respecting techie want to be essentially an HR person in the modern mushroom grower (mushrooms are kept in the dark and fed {censored}) approach to staff management.Such a persona cannot directly relate to the tasks that his mushroom actually do, so they instead measured on customer feedback and otherwise meeting a bunch of big standard non technical corporate objectives. From an across the board comon metric point of view thsi makes sense - to hell with inviduality, measure everyone the same way regardless of what they do.The customer feeding back will tend to report better on those who can convince the customer of what they did rather than those who can quietly just do it and do it very well. Bull{censored} merchant who cant do but can say the right things go down well... The quiet and very good techy types tend not to be as meaningfully communicative to all level in a customer business so fail on that - somewhere int he middle are smaller and still less commuincative bunch who are both good techies and able to at least commuincate on the right terms to all levels - they generally get very good feedback, but its still hit and miss relative to useless bull{censored} merchants.Yeh - guess who is pissed off with what the IT industry has become... but hey - I still need money for my toys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NYCCane Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 macs are nice- but I can't afford one since I only make 120 grand a year- and anyway for the price of a mac I could by 2 PCs- one with Vista and vista-compatible hardware/software and on one running trusty XP- and still have enough cash left over to buy a Midi controller or something ive been a longtime PC user, but for equivalent specs mac costs about the same now as pc....and goddam firewire is useless on PC laptops.....and windows overall is a terrible OS when it comes down to it.....it just constantly degrades. as you can tell, im over the PC supporter vibe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members program_insect Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 I work at MS. There is a surprisng level of apathy towards Vista internally. Personally, I don't really love it, but I think there is definitely a large amount of FUD floating around its release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ririzarry Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Yes, by all means get a mac, because we all remember how easy it was to port all the OS9 software to OSX ... right... huh...??? *(sarcasm ends...) +1 - I guess no one payed attention to the complete rewrite of the operating system which broke any number of applications - including bread and butter type desktop publishing stuff for which Macs are renown... That said, the general rule in the IT community with operating systems is to let it cook. Many wait for the release of the first service pack. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mook Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 With previous incarnations of OS updates, users have seen a clear reason to update. I'm not a mac user (yet) so can't comment on OS9 to OSX, but I've been from DOS 3.1 thru 5 to 6.2, from Windows 2 to 3 to 3.1 and 3.11, from 16 to 32 bit, from console-based to not-quite-window-based program manager to explorer, from 8.3 to lfn, crap peer-to-peer networking to we-better-use tcp/ip-now networking, from fat thru fat32 to ntfs, from ini files to the registry. What is Vista's raison d'etre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khazul Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Its pretty Actually it a fairly major technology modernisation under the hood as well, and yeh its more secure, nannies users alot more to save them from themselves, and maybe for the first time - its properly ready for 3D apps, much broader .net API for more easily created less buggy and more secure common apps.TBH - Im actually not sure I like it as a user - been using it for ages now, nannies me too much, and its too colourful, too many visual effects etc, too much like playing a game and less like a tool.Dont get me wrong - I like the computer interface too look nice, but I dont like busy - I like clean contrasting designs.As an end user, I guess all I care about is audio/midi/graphics performance along with overall system reliability and a hugely improved underlying device architecture so I can actualy plug all my midi gear into a computer at last without being in 10+ driver hell.As a developer - I like it - really like it for writing alot of apps and tools. As a graphics artist - yeh - like it as well, its easy to create visually rich applications that have really good performance - relative to the effort you have to invest in writing them.As a music producer - ugh - that remains to be seen - when I can eventually get enough driver coverage to stick vista 64 on my DAW PC and actually use anything. - Current 1 release (Edirol UM880) and 1 preview driver (UAD-1) so far out of god knows how many... I am not impressed!!!As with the Win64 cycle - congrats and respekt!! to roland for again being one of the first in our market (if not the first) for getting release Vista drivers out in both 32 and 64 bit flavours. Everyone else - hurry up and get on with it, or at least get the ASIO and midi bits done - to hell with the rest as we dont care about it (standars sysem audio support which I tend to disable anyway)I guess at worst it just means us wintel users are now in the same hell that the mac user community has been through several times recently, though at least we still have an option to keep us working - ie WinXP on the same hardware - unlike the poor sods on macs who are completely stuffed if they cant get intel binary support for their drivers and apps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Umbra Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Not worried about a couple of frames per second.Dude, we are not talking about a few frames per second, in some cases we are talking about 90% of the frames per second going away. OpenGL games are basically unrunnable at this point. Also I don't know of any DX10 "compatable" hardware that really supports DX10 well at this point. Well, since we're now ripping IT, here's the problem: Technical schools constantly pound the US radiowaves with a message that says, "Get your MCSE in 90 days and you'll be making money hand over fist asap!" - and it is working. Over the past couple years, a rapidly increasing number of the IT folks I run across are this new breed of paper-holding "experts" with no practical experience. But man, can they do the bureaucracy thing.That's so true, I find those type of people wash out in about 2 months after the realize they actually can't do anything. It's why these days I wont even consider someone who doesn't have a 4 year from an actual university and experience. I could give a rats ass if you have an MCSE alone. I also have a serious issue with people that think they are the greatest IT guru since sliced bread, it's easy to put them in their place the first day of work. Manager is typically someone with at best some people management / hr skills - if your lucky.Not in all cases. I can do any job my staff can do and in most cases do it better. You want me to configure cisco routers, no problem, you want me to maintain PCs', that's trivial, you want me to write documentation, no problem, you want me to write HR or Inventory management software or EDI software, no problem, you want me to do servers, you want me to do RFID, AI or talk to PLC's, I can do that too, you want a website that's database driven, easy as pie. Bring it baby.... I just don't have enough hours in the day to do it all so I have to have a 3 departments of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Umbra Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 +1 - I guess no one payed attention to the complete rewrite of the operating system which broke any number of applications - including bread and butter type desktop publishing stuff for which Macs are renown...You forgot about all the mac users that just run an emulation of windows anyway. So they basically pay a lot more for less performance. The reality is that unless you have a mission critical piece of software that ONLY runs on a mac, it's foolish to not use a PC. People that have problems with a PC are going to have just as many with a mac and there is going to be less help out there for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 That's so true, I find those type of people wash out in about 2 months after the realize they actually can't do anything. It's why these days I wont even consider someone who doesn't have a 4 year from an actual university and experience. I could give a rats ass if you have an MCSE alone. I also have a serious issue with people that think they are the greatest IT guru since sliced bread, it's easy to put them in their place the first day of work.Problem is, these people get hired and get assigned to projects. I wasted three solid days last week on a fresh-faced IT gal who had what I can only call an "imaginary" idea of how SQL/AD authentication worked. She wanted to stop an entire project because "the software doesn't have a login and unsecured apps are completely against corporate policy". She couldn't grasp that there was an AD group and it was assigned to the SQL db. I went over her head and discovered that her supervisor also didn't get it. The problem was finally overcome with an insultingly kindergarden-level flowchart I whipped up on the third day out of total frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loreman Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 You forgot about all the mac users that just run an emulation of windows anyway. So they basically pay a lot more for less performance. The reality is that unless you have a mission critical piece of software that ONLY runs on a mac, it's foolish to not use a PC. People that have problems with a PC are going to have just as many with a mac and there is going to be less help out there for them. The one thing that frustrated me about PC's was that I would envariably suffer soundcard issues. Time and time again. Now I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable and simple solution to remedy this, but frankly that was not something I wanted to be dealing with.I wanted to just create music. No fuss, no fowl. For that I purchased a mac and have not looked back since. I've incurred no problems or issues of any kind. Never. I run all my design software and video/music editing software through it and still have no problems. I've upgraded from OS8 through to OSX and still have suffered no problems.And right now I am frequently bombarded by salemen offering support for both PC and Mac formats, so that old adage that a mac user is singularly alone out there in the work force for support is redundant.There is support around, and they are making a pretty packet out of the new user, who is intimidated by ANY machine out there. Now I'm not a mac fan, in fact I could care a less about who is/was the dominating force within the industry wether it be PC's, Macs, Windows, Panther, Linux or this Vista.... but I do have something that works, and that is the most important factor for me.As a consequence I will commit to macs, as historically they've served me well, but if something better and more reliable came along and I felt sure it would aid me better in my needs then I wouldn't hesitate to consider it. It would be foolish not to.Machines serve my needs, not me there's. (or so I think )P.S. Umbra I've not been around for a year or so, so was just wondering if you have any music I may have missed in that time. I was always into your stuff.Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loreman Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Problem is, these people get hired and get assigned to projects. I wasted three solid days last week on a fresh-faced IT gal who had what I can only call an "imaginary" idea of how SQL/AD authentication worked. She wanted to stop an entire project because "the software doesn't have a login and unsecured apps are completely against corporate policy". She couldn't grasp that there was an AD group and it was assigned to the SQL db. I went over her head and discovered that her supervisor also didn't get it. The problem was finally overcome with an insultingly kindergarden-level flowchart I whipped up on the third day out of total frustration. Ahh!!! You see it is people who are the problem not the machines!!!! If ony there was someway of ridding the world of peo.... Er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Yes, by all means get a mac, because we all remember how easy it was to port all the OS9 software to OSX ... right... huh...??? *(sarcasm ends...) For the record, it wasn't bad--you could still run most programs in 'classic' until they were updated to run under X--and there were really compelling improvements to make it worthwhile. And Apple's rather astonishing change from IBM to Intel chips has probably cost me no more than an hour of dealing with incompatible software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pighood Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Apple's rather astonishing change from IBM to Intel chips has probably cost me no more than an hour of dealing with incompatible software.The....HORROR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members midi Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 I installed RC1 on a E6300 last nite w SATA Raid 0 and it works fine. But for day to day use I'll stay w XP for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 What is Vista's raison d'etre? B-b-b-but SHINEY! LOOKIT! edit: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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