Members jfromel Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 I am actually going to answer the OP's question....... Any delay that is not digital is analog, including delays that use BBD chips. The first analog delay was and still is the Grand Canyon, however that is really hard to take to a gig or use in the Studio. The second analog delays were called oil can delays you can read more about that here... http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/oil_can_delays.htm. In sum it was the predecessor to the tape delay and the underlying technology was very similar. Of course tape delay followed, IE echo-plex. Both the oil can and tape delay basically recorded then played back what was just recorded very soon after the recording took place, took plac, t o o k ....b a z...... on a mechanical substrate. Just like that old 8 track started to wear out the more you played the more the recording wore out causing a degradation in tone and that warble/modulation from the tape wearing out and the gears changing speeds. In the 70's the Bucket Brigade Delay was invented. This was a new technology using common types of components, basically lots of capacitors, a clock and an LFO, crammed into a very small space. The Boss DM-2 uses the MN3005 which has 4096 capacitors packed into a chip less than an inch long. There are all types of modulation effects based on BBD's such as vibrato (VB-2), chorus, flanger, phaser, etc... The BBD works by taking a signal and dumping it into a capacitor, when that cap fills up like a bucket it spills into the next cap in the brigade and so on and so on a thousand or so times, when it gets to the end of the line the signal is delayed. Nothing digital going on, just capacitors. BBD's sound warm because each time the signal gets dumped into the next cap a tiny bit of signal is lost, softening the highs. Someone earlier mentioned that BBD were kind of digital and nothing could be further from the truth. BBD delays are 100% pure analog. In the 80's came digital delays. The Boss DD-2 was the first compact digital delay pedal (IRRC). It sounded great, clean and clear. The audio signal is converted to digital data stored then repeated and converted back to an audio signal. There is also some loss of fidelity in the conversion but it's of a different type than the loss in tape and BBD delays. Over the years the sampling rates and quality of A/D to D/A conversion has improved a lot and digital delay is now much less expensive to produce than analog delay, what's more it sounds good compared to a lot of the early digital delays. So here comes the PT2399 chip, a low cost digital delay processor that is well suited to model both tape and BBD type delays. And consumers want analog delays but don't want to pay the $$ for them. I recently paid $20/each for some MN3005 chips and that was a good deal. On top of that I need a clock $4, a compander, $3 and 3 nice op-amps at $3/each. That's $36 in chips for one 300ms delay. Many of the delays now being produced are digital delays that are voiced like analog and they do a good job of it. You mentioned that you want modulation? You can get that in an analog or digital delay. If your delay of choice does not have modulation it is not difficult to modify most delays to have an effect loop thus modulating your delay however you please. Currently manufactured Delays, I am sure there are many more than this but... Analog Delays:1. Fulltone TTE (tape) all others are BBD.2. Ibanez/Maxon AD-808, AD-9, AD-9993. Malekko E600 and E300 in dark and bright 4. MXR Carbon Copy5. Retro-sonic6. Diamond Memory Lane7. EH DMM Digital Delays :1. Anything currently made by Boss2. Carl Martin3. Digitech4. EH SMM5. Empress6. Eventide7. Freakshow Digilog8. Guyatone MD-3 and TD-x9. Mad Professor 10. Moolon12. Pigtronix13. Skreddy14. Subdecay15. T-Rex16. TC Electronics But what about true bypass????? Pick a delay that you like, it's ok to have a buffer at or near the end of your chain of pedals which is where a delay usually is. Just because a delay is buffered does not mean that the echo will trail off when you bypass the unit. But the poster who commented on that feature is correct that a true bypass delay cannot trail off. Do the new digital delays voiced to sound analog sound better than pure analog? Only if they sound better to you. Personally I have never cared for the AD-9 but I think the DM-2 is the best sounding delay ever, with the Malekko E600B a very close 2nd. My favoiite digital delay is the Boss DD-2. I run 4 delays on my board, 2 DD-2's, a DM-2 and a Malekko E600B. One of the DD-2's has been modded to sound like an analog delay. Don't get worked up in analog v digital or true bypass v buffered bypass. All delays sound different so just find the one you like and go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 For all the folks who were saying that BBD's are "kinda digital", this 's for you. PS Great post jfromel. The only disagreement I have after quickly reading it over is that technically, tape delay came before oil can delays - but that's in the studio... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Uma Floresta Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 True bypass isn't that important. Just go for what sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 what about compander circuits? don't they have something to do with the "analog" tone of delay pedalz? the skreddy echo is digital but it's about as awesomely "analog" sounding as you could want IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chaosStrings Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 For all the folks who were saying that BBD's are "kinda digital", this 's for you. +1. Stricly speaking, they are not, since the signal is not converted into a series of 0 and 1s. However, while there is no quantization of the voltage, time is discretized, because of the Bucket brigade structure: transistors are switched a a clock frequency in order to allow the charge / discharge of capacitors, which enabls the signal to travel further along the BB ... that is why low pass filtering is needed, i order to avoid aliasing. I read an article somewhere discussing about the issue of digital delays, I'll try to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 My advice is to wait for the Malekko 919 and then buy the {censored} out of it, as I am planning to do. It's analog, and it has modulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chaosStrings Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Found it, in the bowels of General Guitar Gadgets: http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/diagrams/pt80techinfo.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 I endorse what works for me: Get an Earthquaker Devices Disaster Transport. It's technically digital, but it sounds better than and every bit as analog as the several analog delays that I've used, IMO (carbon copy, Maxon ad999, Malekko e600d). Realistically, the Malekko was a tiny bit more complex and sweet sounding, but it doesn't have modulation. You may want to hold out for the 616 or 919 malekkos with mod. AND the modulation is footswitchable....and DELICIOUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kvalois Posted March 10, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Wow!!!! Thanks everyone for the suggestions!! I am new to delay pedals, but I'm receiving a great "crash course" on them!!!! karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Another great choice that I didn't mention simply because I haven't OWNED one is the Retro-Sonic analog delay. That thing is pretty incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Another great choice that I didn't mention simply because I haven't OWNED one is the Retro-Sonic analog delay.That thing is pretty incredible. I'm very into DMMs - I haven't heard a pedal come as close to tape delay. But nitefly swears by that Retro-Sonic. I haven't tried it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theinteriorleag Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 this is what i get out of your post:your friend has no idea what he's talking about. ...and probably shouldn't be owning a shop. should do well to work the floor at guitar center though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 ...and probably shouldn't be owning a shop. should do well to work the floor at guitar center though. THIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrguy Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Definitely some good posts here with regards to true-bypass, buffers, delay trails, etc. The collected wisdom of HC Forum is a superb resource. jromel- good post! Aimish WallaceDiamond Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AMZ-FX Posted March 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 10, 2009 For all the folks who were saying that BBD's are "kinda digital", this 's for you. BBDs are digital. The clock pulse is sampling the input signal via a sample-and-hold just like a digital memory delay is sampling the input through an AD converter. Both are taking thin slices of the analog signal, delaying them and then reassembling the slices on the output to make a signal again. The only difference is in how they are storing the sampled signal level. BBDs are subject to aliasing, Nyquist frequency limits, clock noise feedthrough, and output filtering just like digital memory devices. Analog Delays: Tape Springs Plates Big empty rooms Digital Delays: BBDs CCDs Memory-based devices -Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Agreed Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 +1. Stricly speaking, they are not, since the signal is not converted into a series of 0 and 1s. However, while there is no quantization of the voltage, time is discretized, because of the Bucket brigade structure: transistors are switched a a clock frequency in order to allow the charge / discharge of capacitors, which enabls the signal to travel further along the BB ... that is why low pass filtering is needed, i order to avoid aliasing. I read an article somewhere discussing about the issue of digital delays, I'll try to find it. Because this is exactly what I meant. And the very low effective "samplerate" of the BBDs results in a lot of aliasing not at all unlike what you'd hear with early digital delays which used very low samplerates compared to today's stuff. Absolutely no need to sling around, I'm not an idiot and I'm not claiming anything absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 a digital memory delay is sampling the input through an AD converter. Both are taking thin slices of the analog signal, delaying them and then reassembling the slices on the output to make a signal again. The only difference is in how they are storing the sampled signal level. BBDs are subject to aliasing, Nyquist frequency limits, clock noise feedthrough, and output filtering just like digital memory devices. Analog Delays: Tape Springs Plates Big empty rooms Digital Delays: BBDs CCDs Memory-based devices -Jack Last I checked "Like" and "the same as" had different definitions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mlabbee Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 The awful part about this comment is that the avatar right below it is this: LOL! If it makes you feel any better, it's chocolate cake . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mlabbee Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 BBDs are digital. The clock pulse is sampling the input signal via a sample-and-hold just like a digital memory delay is sampling the input through an AD converter. Both are taking thin slices of the analog signal, delaying them and then reassembling the slices on the output to make a signal again. The only difference is in how they are storing the sampled signal level. BBDs are subject to aliasing, Nyquist frequency limits, clock noise feedthrough, and output filtering just like digital memory devices. Analog Delays: Tape Springs Plates Big empty rooms Digital Delays: BBDs CCDs Memory-based devices -Jack That's a good explanation, but I think BBDs are really more of an intermediate step between analog and digital. It depends on your definition of digital, but I think of digital being free of signal degradation once the A/D conversion has taken place (absent compression, of course) - the 1 stays a 1. The sample and hold mechanism used in BBDs is still subjects the signal to degradation as the sampled voltage is transfer to bucket to bucket . . . probably an academic discussion, though - I think everyone should buy one of each type and be happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chakosh Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 There's a lot of good info in this thread. My $0.02 - if you're new to effects, get a DD-7 that has some features on it but is still pretty inexpensive. The Boss pedals have some hate, but I dig 'em. I like the reverse function, the hold function, the 20,000,000 seconds of delay time you can dial in, and the analog and modulation settings. Does a digital delay model analog as well as a "true analog" delay pedal? No. But how many people in the audience are going to say "Oh, he's a hack. He's using a digital delay with an analog setting on it"? That's right. half of them. But f**k them - those pricks were on the guest list and won't even buy your a$$ a drink. Cheap bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 There's a lot of good info in this thread. My $0.02 - if you're new to effects, get a DD-7 that has some features on it but is still pretty inexpensive. The Boss pedals have some hate, but I dig 'em. I like the reverse function, the hold function, the 20,000,000 seconds of delay time you can dial in, and the analog and modulation settings. Does a digital delay model analog as well as a "true analog" delay pedal? No. But how many people in the audience are going to say "Oh, he's a hack. He's using a digital delay with an analog setting on it"? That's right. half of them. But f**k them - those pricks were on the guest list and won't even buy your a$$ a drink. Cheap bastards. wat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chakosh Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 wat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Snufkino Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Does a digital delay model analog as well as a "true analog" delay pedal? No. But how many people in the audience are going to say "Oh, he's a hack. He's using a digital delay with an analog setting on it"? That's right. half of them. But f**k them - those pricks were on the guest list and won't even buy your a$$ a drink. Cheap bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Absolutely no need to sling around, I'm not an idiot and I'm not claiming anything absurd. Palms to the face - they're serious business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Agreed Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Palms to the face - they're serious business. I know it's not cool to care about anything, but getting called out by one of the top admins of HC for no reason at all isn't really cool either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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