Motion Sound Update (Keyboard amps)/Amplification Thread

[Palaver]

Hey guys,

 

I called motion sound yesterday about their new KP-500SN. The list price on it is $1449 and I was talking to one of their techs (I believe the name was John Fisher?). He was saying that the amps are ready to go, but they are just waiting on a certain transformer to arrive. Once it's installed, they're ready to go. He was expecting them to ship somewhere between mid-June to the beginning of July.

 

Here are some specs that you may find surprising:

 

The KP-500SN pushes out as much volume as the KP-200S with an added slave cab. I didn't realize that adding a slave to the KP-200S would add an extra 60dBs of head room. Infact, the KP-200S with the slave puts out an extra 2dB over the KP-500SN, and it also sits neatly on top of their sub. The newer KP-500SN doesn't fit properly on their current sub... They said that pending on sales of the KP-500SN, they will consider building a dedicated slave cab/sub for the new unit. I don't really forsee this happening anytime soon due to the shear power of the KP-500SN.

 

I found that quite surprising. If I had to of known that the slave added that much more headroom, I probably wouldn't of sold the KP-200S. However, I don't want to be carting around an extra 50lbs+ in my civic along with keyboards and all the other toys. The tech also seemed to prefer the sound/presence of the KP-200S with the slave opposed to the 500SN... due to more air being pushed. And obviously, their sound character will be different with the different speaker models and sizes.

 

I know I want to run a micro PA. However, I am thinking about dropping the Motion-Sound idea and grabbing a Yorkville Elite Excursion 2000.

 

Where's gigman? I know you are a Motion-Sound lover along with myself, but I need a lot of power to run drum loops, along with keys leads to compete with guitar stacks and acoustic drums in the night club setting. And I don't want to depend on house systems...especially in smaller settings.

 

Cheers,

Phil

[mate_stubb]

Corrections:

 

John Fisher is the OWNER as well as the chief engineer.

 

A slave cabinet adds 6 db, not 60!

[Palaver]

 

Corrections: John Fisher is the OWNER as well as the chief engineer. A slave cabinet adds 6 db, not 60!

 

 

That's hilarious. I've always had wonderful service from them, and they make excellent products. I tried finding the names on the page in a quick run thru, but I came up short.

 

Thanks... that's good to know! I could of sworn that he said a sound-level increase of 60dB on the phone, but that may have been a slip of the toungue or my ear... but 60dB did sound like quite a lot... however, the 500SN is A LOT more powerful than the KP-200S.

 

Either way... regardless, I know I didn't screw up this part: KP-200S coupled with a slave delivers approximately the same amount of volume than the KP-500SN... however the KP-200S is pushing more air and delivers more of a presence when coupled to a slave (when compared to the 500SN).

 

Cheers,

Phil

[wineandkeyz]

 

Corrections: John Fisher is the OWNER as well as the chief engineer. A slave cabinet adds 6 db, not 60!

 

 

Clarification: John Fisher WAS the owner of Motion Sound, now he is AN owner and partner of XP Audio, of which Motion Sound is a division. Jorn is also the divisional manager of Motion Sound.

[wineandkeyz]

I called motion sound yesterday about their new KP-500SN. The list price on it is $1449...

 

Which only makes me love my Traynor K4 even MORE!

[Palaver]

Which only makes me love my Traynor K4 even MORE!

 

If you look at high fidelity PA systems like the JBL eon/Mackie SRM 450s, the price of the Motion Sound isn't bad... considering it has an onboard mixer, and you don't got a cluster {censored} of wiring & speaker stands to deal with. Especially, with the 500SN... BTW, that's 250watts per channel RMS... which literally puts it on par with a Mackie SRM 450 stereo PA system. There's an unreal amount of power in that box. It's basically the smallest high-output PA ever made that covers the full auditory spectrum (I know that statement is going to open up pandora's box), and it's only 57lbs.

 

The Motion Sound (IMHO) is the only true stereo amp on the market that provides you with a good image that is great for monitoring. Yorkie's are excellent products, but the Motion-Sound is definitely way ahead of the game. If you place that Traynor at any distance, you'd need to have two of them (which automatically makes it more of a pain in the ass) in order to hear your patches in stereo. Even with two traynor K4s, you're still at less power than a KP500SN, and you're already double the weight!

 

Fanboy mode off!

 

In the end, we all have different needs and requirments for what we do. All in all, both are excellent products, but the Motion Sound is better:lol:

[mate_stubb]

10 db = twice as loud

6 db = appreciably louder

3 db = somewhat louder

1 db = smallest volume change a normal human can hear

 

To achieve 10 db gain, takes 10 TIMES THE AMP POWER (thru the same speakers)

 

To achieve 3 db gain, takes TWICE THE AMP POWER (thru the same speakers)

 

To achieve a 6 db gain, you can power a second set of speakers with an equal amount of power as the first.

 

So a 500W MS amp would be about 3 db louder than a 200W MS amp. To build an amp twice as loud as a KP-200, MS would have to use a 2000W amp!

 

Edit: So a 200W MS plus a 200W expander should be louder than the 500W , due to the extra set of speakers.

[wineandkeyz]

 

If you look at high fidelity PA systems like the JBL eon/Mackie SRM 450s, the price of the Motion Sound isn't bad... considering it has an onboard mixer, and you don't got a cluster {censored} of wiring & speaker stands to deal with. Especially, with the 500SN... BTW, that's 250watts per channel RMS... which literally puts it on par with a Mackie SRM 450 stereo PA system. There's an unreal amount of power in that box. It's basically the smallest high-output PA ever made that covers the full auditory spectrum (I know that statement is going to open up pandora's box), and it's only 57lbs. The Motion Sound (IMHO) is the only true stereo amp on the market that provides you with a good image that is great for monitoring. Yorkie's are excellent products, but the Motion-Sound is definitely way ahead of the game. If you place that Traynor at any distance, you'd need to have two of them (which automatically makes it more of a pain in the ass) in order to hear your patches in stereo. Even with two traynor K4s, you're still at less power than a KP500SN, and you're already double the weight! Fanboy mode off! In the end, we all have different needs and requirments for what we do. All in all, both are excellent products, but the Motion Sound is better:lol:

 

 

What are you? A product manager for Motion Sound? :poke:

 

Maybe the Motion Sound is "better" for your needs, but it only has 2 input channels, which is a deal breaker for me. The K4 has 3, which is the bare minimum I need.

 

As far as your claims about stereo imaging, I haven't heard the new MS yet -- have you? -- but I'm quite happy with the sound I get from the K4. I don't get the separation I used to get from using 2 powered monitors, but at this point I prefer the convenience of having the mixer and amp built into one unit.

 

As far as volume, the K4's 300 watts are plenty for my needs.

 

The K4 costs roughly 1/2 what the new MS amp costs. If you truly feel the price difference is worth it, go for it.

[GigMan]

Where's gigman? I know you are a Motion-Sound lover along with myself, but I need a lot of power to run drum loops, along with keys leads to compete with guitar stacks and acoustic drums in the night club setting. And I don't want to depend on house systems...especially in smaller settings.

 

Right here - scanning for keyboard amp postings I can throw my .02 cents into, instead of practicing for a gig I have in a few hours...

 

So you sold your Motion Sound KP200S thinking it was underpowered, decided you'd buy their newest, more powerful model the KP500SN but then found out you could've achieved even more power by just adding a slave cabinet to the KP200S? Interesting...

 

Yes I do love the sound of my KP200S but I definitely find it a bit underpowered. I currently play in a wedding band that uses a headphone distribution system - the Hearback personal monitoring system so I don't use the KP200S on those gigs, only on other misc. gigs w/other people... but if you're looking for something where you

need a lot of power to run drum loops, along with keys leads to compete with guitar stacks and acoustic drums in the night club setting.

 

...then you need a PA, dude! Go for a nice compact mixer like an Allen & Heath MixWiz 3 16:2 or a Peavey Peavey 16FX w/a pair of JBL EONs or the new powered JBL MRX cabs and be done w/it. Then you can just use your KP200s as a stage monitor for your own keys for your own ears.

[Palaver]

Right here - scanning for keyboard amp postings I can throw my .02 cents into, instead of practicing for a gig I have in a few hours... So you sold your Motion Sound KP200S thinking it was underpowered, decided you'd buy their newest, more powerful model the KP500SN but then found out you could've achieved even more power by just adding a slave cabinet to the KP200S? Interesting... Yes I do love the sound of my KP200S but I definitely find it a bit underpowered. I currently play in a wedding band that uses a headphone distribution system - the Hearback personal monitoring system so I don't use the KP200S on those gigs, only on other misc. gigs w/other people... but if you're looking for something where you ...then you need a PA, dude! Go for a nice compact mixer like an Allen & Heath MixWiz 3 16:2 or a Peavey Peavey 16FX w/a pair of JBL EONs or the new powered JBL MRX cabs and be done w/it. Then you can just use your KP200s as a stage monitor for your own keys for your own ears.

 

I dont regret the sell because I sold it to a guy that I jam with:cool:

 

But all in all, I'd rather have the more powerful box that's approximately the same size. Either way, I won't be playing again for at least a half year, so it makes no difference really. I'll see when the time comes... altho it's probably going to be a Yorkville Elite Excursion PA system (which is what I want to avoid).

 

Mate_stubb: I appreciate the clarification on the dB scale.

 

wineandkeys: I didn't mean to come off as a pompous dick. All apologies if I did. I meant to come off with a joking tone. But like I said earlier - to each their own... we all have different needs. I know Gigman is an amp guru and unfortunately, it looks like I am going to have to take the micro PA route. Looks like I will be grabbing a Yorkie excursion system sometime within the next year, so it looks like I am joining your club:thu:... they make some nice PAs and I should be able to grab a good deal on one.

 

Any recommendations on micro PAs? I'm also a big fan of the JBL Eons, but for size/power, I'm really digging the Yorkville excursion stuff.

[robotsquid]

10 db = twice as loud 6 db = appreciably louder 3 db = somewhat louder 1 db = smallest volume change a normal human can hear To achieve 10 db gain, takes 10 TIMES THE AMP POWER (thru the same speakers) To achieve 3 db gain, takes TWICE THE AMP POWER (thru the same speakers) To achieve a 6 db gain, you can power a second set of speakers with an equal amount of power as the first. So a 500W MS amp would be about 3 db louder than a 200W MS amp. To build an amp twice as loud as a KP-200, MS would have to use a 2000W amp! Edit: So a 200W MS plus a 200W expander should be louder than the 500W , due to the extra set of speakers.

 

Sorry man, but that's (mostly) wrong.

 

You're on the right track about Decibels being a logarithmic scale, but your list is quite a bit out.

 

To calculate the difference between two levels in dB you work out the ratio of the two powers/levels/whatever you're measuring, then calculate 10 times the log of the ratio.

 

Humans perceive something 6dB louder to be twice as loud.

Doubling the power gives a 3dB increase.

Therefore to have something sound twice as loud you have to supply four times the power, not ten times.

 

'Normal' human ears can perceive differences in level much finer than 1dB.

 

Sorry to have to contradict you on a public forum but people people might read it and take the wrong information as gospel.

[wineandkeyz]

wineandkeys : I didn't mean to come off as a pompous dick. All apologies if I did. I meant to come off with a joking tone. But like I said earlier - to each their own... we all have different needs. I know Gigman is an amp guru and unfortunately, it looks like I am going to have to take the micro PA route. Looks like I will be grabbing a Yorkie excursion system sometime within the next year, so it looks like I am joining your club:thu: ... they make some nice PAs and I should be able to grab a good deal on one. Any recommendations on micro PAs? I'm also a big fan of the JBL Eons, but for size/power, I'm really digging the Yorkville excursion stuff.

 

No worries, Palaver. To be honest, if the new MS had more input channels, a stereo tube preamp section, and ground lift on the outputs, I'd be GASing for one!

 

As far as micro PAs, sounds like you're on the right track. My last band used JBL EONs for the mains, and I was very impressed with them. I've always thought a pair of them would sound awesome for keyboard monitoring. Don't know anything about the Yorkville excursion stuff, though.

[mate_stubb]

Well, I stand by my statement.

 

You said:

 

To calculate the difference between two levels in dB you work out the ratio of the two powers/levels/whatever you're measuring, then calculate 10 times the log of the ratio.

 

 

That is correct. So here's the equation, substituting 4 times the power:

10 log (P2/P1)= 10 log 4 = 6 dB

 

So a power difference of 4x yields a 6 dB increase.

 

While solving for a 10x power difference you get:

10 log (P2/P1)= 10 log 10 = 10 dB

 

So we appear to be in agreement there.

 

You said:

 

Humans perceive something 6dB louder to be twice as loud.

 

 

I'm going to have to dispute you here. The generally accepted standard for "twice as loud" is 10 dB. Check it out.

 

However, human perception varies if you are comparing very soft as opposed to very loud sounds, or sounds of different frequencies, etc.

[pogo97]

I'm finding my KP200S a bit underpowered in an old man guitar jam band--I have to turn down the bass to avoid clipping. A bit distressing. But I think the real solution is to devise a means of getting it closer to my ears--last time I placed it tilted up but farther away than necessary.

 

Along with all this db stuff, no-one has mentioned the effect distance has on perceived loudness. Of course it's not cut-and-dried unless you're in an anechoic space but closer is certain to be louder. And pointed at your head.

 

Or lose the drummer.

[wdl]

I think the KP-500SN coupled with the Motion Sound SW-15 subwoofer would be a KILLER rig... Really qute comparable to anything out there (including my QSC/AG rig!).

 

Does anyone here know when is it going to be available to buy?

[GigMan]

I'm finding my KP200S a bit underpowered in an old man guitar jam band--I have to turn down the bass to avoid clipping. A bit distressing. But I think the real solution is to devise a means of getting it closer to my ears--last time I placed it tilted up but farther away than necessary.

 

Used my KP200S as a keyboard amp/stage monitor at a summer concert last night, one of those "setup in a gazebo" deals...

 

5 piece band - bass, gtr., keys, drums & sax... my KP200S sounded great because I had it elevated all the way up to ear level, on top of FOUR milkcrates! Really - it makes a world of difference, I could hear it and everyone on stage could hear it also... plus I ran a line to the PA from my Mackie 1202 so I was running stereo to the KP200S from the Mackie's main outs and then using an Aux. Send to send mono to the FOH. Sounded good out front AND on stage...

[pink floyd cramer]

The 500 model must not be out yet because the Joey has new ads picturing him with the KP200s, slave, and sub-the "sound he has always dreamed about" (along with the new Diversi B3 clone). I think he has had a sneak preview of the 500 and likes the MS stack better.

 

IMO the 500 would have to have to be significantly better for ac. piano patch "hi-fi-ness" to be anywhere near worth the price (speaking as a happy KP200s user). Joey D don't mess around with piano samples so he prolly don't care about that.

[GigMan]

The 500 model must not be out yet because the Joey has new ads picturing him with the KP200s, slave, and sub-the "sound he has always dreamed about" (along with the new Diversi B3 clone). I think he has had a sneak preview of the 500 and likes the MS stack better. IMO the 500 would have to have to be significantly better for ac. piano patch "hi-fi-ness" to be anywhere near worth the price (speaking as a happy KP200s user). Joey D don't mess around with piano samples so he prolly don't care about that.

 

pfc - if I remember you do a lot of solo gigs... but sometimes fill-in w/other bands? Do you ever find the KP200S underpowered - particularly in band situations? I do at times but using it at last night's summer concert gig, it sounded great... I had not used it in a while because the wedding band I play in (which has been the source of the majority of my gigs recently) uses a headphone distribution system - the Hearback system from Hear Technologies - and I don't even bring an amp.

 

Of course, as I said in previous post - last night I had the damn thing up on FOUR milkcrates, so it was right at ear level and I think that makes a lot of difference.

[pink floyd cramer]

Gigman- the KP has always been loud enough for monitering- but I have had to push it on some of the louder gigs. For those, it seems to help a little to use it in mono (but it still sounds pretty good).

 

I think that stereo monitering is losing it's importance as keyboard companies put more emphasis on usable mono piano samples. But my P120 benefits greatly from stereo treatment (esp. for solo/lower volume gigs) so I'm glad to have the KP. It's a very versatile amp.

[wdl]

The KP-500SN has 2 12" speakers and the KP-200 has 2 10's... So I think the 500 will not only be louder, but less compressed. And it is only 2 pounds heavier than the 200!

[Outkaster]

I am gonna have to get one of those!

[wdl]

As for those interested when the KP500SN will be available, I received the following email from Motion Sound yesterday:

 

 

"The KP-500SN will be available at the end of August! Please visit our

website www.motion-sound.com and click on dealers to find a dealer in your

area!

 

Thanks,

 

Hajie M. Goll

Executive Manager"

 

 

2370 South 3600 West

Salt Lake City, UT 84119

801-265-0917 Ext. 410

801-265-0978 Fax

hajie.goll@xpaudioinc.com

[nmcq333]

I have the Motion Sound KP200S AND added the Slave (SL-200S) after playing with just the base amp for a year or so, and it became significantly louder without breaking up, and with lots of headroom. For the first time the guitar player said to turn it down. Cool.

I contacted Motion Sound awhile ago to ask if the SL-200S Slave would fit with the new KP-500 SN and they said that it WOULD! The 500SN's feet were being built to fit in the recesses on top of the Slave. Whoa! Now that is going to be frikking loud! And clean. And stereo. I play a Nord Stage, and the instruments and effects are engineered for stereo, to say nothing of the leslie sim, and IMO it makes a tremendous difference; I wouldn't play without stereo if I can help it.

I wonder if any of the math-whizzes here who were doing the decibel calculations earlier in this thread could give me/us a DB figure for what the 500SN+200SL slave difference would be compared to the 200S+200SL combo, and compared to the 500SN alone? That would be greatly appreciated.

John Fisher's message to me back in January is below.

First, with regard to some 'discussion' here about the Traynor vs the Motion Sound, I've had both, and sent the Traynor back the next day. Subjective considerations aside, I wanted to point out that the Traynor's woofer is mono-summed, so it isn't true stereo as is Motion Sound. Plus the MS has the width or spread control, which increases an already wide stereo field. Also someone said the MS only has 2 channels or something like that. In fact, the Motion Sound allows 2 stereo instruments or 4 mono instruments IN EACH OF TWO CHANNELS, allowing for a total of 4 stereo instruments or 8 mono instruments. Plus a XLR mic input. Plus a click input and volume control, which is handy for hearing the guitar player on the other side of the stage at monitoring volume, separate from stage sound volume. To each his own, but I have had the powered Eons, and powered EVs, and Traynor, and Barbetta, and others, and I've stuck with Motion Sound in one form or another for many years. YMMV.

Funny enough, in a couple of bands I play in, after I started using the Motion Sousnd 200 PLUS Slave combination instead of just the 200 amp some of the other players complimented me on things I had been playing for a long time! Meaning they hadn't been hearing them, or at least not in a noticeable way. These guys were on the other side of the stage and in the middle, BTW, and these particular bands all do stage sound for instrumentation, no keyboards-in-the-PA allowed. The 200 by itself is underpowered for stage sound in anything over a small to small-medium-sized room.

So anyway, back in January John Fisher responded to my question with the following:

"Hello Neil,

The KP-500SN will be available in May/June. It was a very big hit at NAMM! There are some issues to work out though such as which Neodymiun speakers to use and what class of power amplifier.

The SL-200S will plug into the KP-500S the same as your KP-200S and the feet will line up with the recesses."

I understand delay to market issues, better to get it right. As we say in advertising, there's "first to market" and there's "right to market" and you want to be the latter.

Thanks in advance for any DB info on the 500SN+200SL slave combo.

 

Neil

nmcq@cox.net

www.myspace.com/AlteredDominant

[wdl]

I think the 500 with the slave will smoke two 200's...

Not just because the 500 both has the power, but more because it has two 12's instead of 10's... And that makes a huge difference in achieving natural tonality for both organ and acoustic piano...

So I will wait for the 500.....

[jrlaudio]

I use the MS KPs-200 w/ one slave and the subwoofer and can't understand why anyone would need anything more. I use modulars (dotcom), Moogs and other vintage keys, as well as Reason and other VS's mixed through an OpenLabs NeKo76 for live work (a Pink Floyd thing) and find it (MS) very loud and absolutely crystal clear.

 

As far as the tonality thing, I would say four tens and a fifteen (plus four HF drivers) is gonna give you whatever tonality one would desire, and much more than a pair of twelves. But if it comes down to just having one amp, you could be right. But for me I do not use the amp in that manner (using it to generate harmonics or cone distortion effects, etc).

 

I wanted purity and fidelity, not color. I wanted something that would be as transparent (within reason) as a PA, without it being a PA. That's why I went with MS. If I wanted color for my vintage synths, hell, i'd find an old Fender bassman or an ol Acoustic and crank it! Haha. Ol School!

 

BTW, I use a real Leslie 122 (not MS) for rotary.

 

 

 

Cheers!