Members Ryan. Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 (NO, it isn't that my song writing sucks.) When my band writes a song it usually starts with me dicking around on my guitar. I come up with some riff that I can see the singer bobbing his head to, so I know I'm on the right track. Then he starts to sing some gibberish over it and the drums and bass come in. THE PROBLEM, is that the drum and bass never try anything. Drums remain, pretty much, a basic rock beat (slightly more technical, but nothing amazing) and bass just follows the chord changes. My theory is that when writing the song, it should be the time to get crazy and try different things. The drummer tends to argue that we need to keep things simple until the singer can get down a melody and lyrics and let him stand out before we spice {censored} up. The reason I'm against that is because IT NEVER CHANGES. The players get so locked into what they are doing they learn the song the boring way they've played it from the beginning, so they never have the nerve to spice things up. So what route do you think is best? TL;DR: Is it better to try different techniques while you are setting the foundation of the song OR after the foundation has been laid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cirrus Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 This is a problem that happens quite a lot when you're coming up with a song in band practice jamming time. I find it best once you've got a cool idea, be it a riff or a groove or some kind of cool interaction between a couple of instruments, to stop at that point until someone's gone away and actually written a song that uses that. Once you've got a good song with lyrics and melody, you can work on an interesting arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cirrus Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 This is a problem that happens quite a lot when you're coming up with a song in band practice jamming time. I find it best once you've got a cool idea, be it a riff or a groove or some kind of cool interaction between a couple of instruments, to stop at that point until someone's gone away and actually written a song that uses that. Once you've got a good song with lyrics and melody, you can work on an interesting arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vulcaniza P Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 maybe u need better/ more imaginative creative players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted August 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 maybe u need better/ more imaginative creative players.Good point. Off to fire the current players. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FlyGuy10 Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 As much as anyone can be categorically wrong when it comes to something as subjective as music, your drummer is wrong, plain and simple. As a guitarist/lyricist I'd rather there be a sweet beat to base everything else off of than there to be 4 chords. Different instruments should bring different stuff to the table. Maybe you guys write a song starting with a great bass line, maybe a beat, or maybe a riff. But imo that gives you 3 potential songs, each with a unique prominent part (the original 'idea' line, beat, riff). Drummers more than anything control the dynamic of the band, so if he's subscribed himself to monotony, then you're essentially doomed from the start. Essentially, I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brokenfixed Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 I hate the idea of conforming to the singer, it usually sets a typical platform for the guy to carefully walk on top of while the music is left in the background. I sometimes have this choice when working with the drummer. Its usually when I'm directing people through a song Ive been working on. I dont wanna sit around and wait for the drummer to work on a cool roll or fill, I wanna teach the bassist whats going on next in the song. And get the arrangement down first then as it progresses he can go back while practicing and add certain {censored}. The problem with that is that sometimes it never happens. Muscle memory takes over and parts get left kinda plain. The way Ive been playing lately is just jamming riffs over and over while having the recorder rolling and going back and cutting out cool parts. This way I can tell the drummer "this {censored} was cool here" and the bassist "dont do that"...haha' Problem with that setup is sometimes you can get distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 maybe the band just sucks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members macadood Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 pffft subs. power chord -> power chord -> powerchordpowerchordpowerchord. song = done. BOOM. but yea, cirrus is right, what youre doing is not 'song writing', just riffing and jamming. also, get a new drummer and bass player that can do more than just basic rawk beat and lame bass. maybe let them try to do a bass or drum solo in some songs to spice it up RUIN the Ruin in typical ryn fashion This is a problem that happens quite a lot when you're coming up with a song in band practice jamming time. I find it best once you've got a cool idea, be it a riff or a groove or some kind of cool interaction between a couple of instruments, to stop at that point until someone's gone away and actually written a song that uses that. Once you've got a good song with lyrics and melody, you can work on an interesting arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brokenfixed Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 Drummers more than anything control the dynamic of the band, so if he's subscribed himself to monotony, then you're essentially doomed from the start. as a songwriter and a drummer I completely agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 Two suggestions: 1. I used to be in bands where our songwriting was much as you described... throw everyone in a room, start making noise based on a guitar riff, and everyone sort of comes up with their "part" for the song. To me, this "jam based" method is inefficient and tends to lead to a watered-down result. These days I just write all the songs myself, or with one other person. I write/record all the basic parts, drums, bass, guitar, melody, and song structure. Then I let the other players listen to the rough track, and either play the part as I wrote it or come up with something that is BETTER FOR THE SONG. (When you think about it, don't most bands have just one or two songwriters who pretty much write the whole song?) 2. Record your sessions. Songs sound very different when you are playing in a band/rehearsal setting compared to when you listen to them privately. I usually listen to a rough, initial version of a song idea at least 30 times on my ipod... at the work, at the gym, in the car... taking notes on lyrical ideas, changes in structure, etc. Then I return to the song and re-record a new version. You can learn so much from repeated listening. I'm interested in hearing ideas from others. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members macadood Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 maybe the band just sucks? +1 ryn youre the only talent that band has Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToonHollow Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 Drummers more than anything control the dynamic of the band, so if he's subscribed himself to monotony, then you're essentially doomed from the start.Essentially, I agree with you. Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cirrus Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 come up with something that is BETTER FOR THE SONG. This is a rule I try to stick to as well. Don't like it? No problem. Come up with a better idea and we'll talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Texas Noise Factory Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 This is a process that requires revision. Make sure the players understand this. Yourself included. This brings to mind a song that I wrote where the original riff I came up with inspired the singer to write his lyrics to that melody. The bass player wrote his bass line to my original riff, then changed it to fit the lyrical melody once the lyrics were written. I realized the guitar part was stagnant since it followed he vocal melody now, and caused me to rewrite the main guitar melody around the vocals and bass line. What resulted was one of our better songs. This whole process took a few months to work itself out, but in the end, it was worth it. Being able to record these jams you do and further develop them external to he group will take you to a different level than what you are currently experiencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr.Picklebottom Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 keep the vocals out of the picture until people come up with interesting parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TomCTC Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 You just have a lazy rhythm section that doesn't like taking chances. Kick em out if it bothers you so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TomCTC Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 maybe the band just sucks? This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted August 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 maybe the band just sucks? This thread isn't about your problems, brosephina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brokenfixed Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 Two suggestions:1. I used to be in bands where our songwriting was much as you described... throw everyone in a room, start making noise based on a guitar riff, and everyone sort of comes up with their "part" for the song. To me, this "jam based" method is inefficient and tends to lead to a watered-down result.These days I just write all the songs myself, or with one other person. I write/record all the basic parts, drums, bass, guitar, melody, and song structure. Then I let the other players listen to the rough track, and either play the part as I wrote it or come up with something that is BETTER FOR THE SONG.(When you think about it, don't most bands have just one or two songwriters who pretty much write the whole song?)2. Record your sessions. Songs sound very different when you are playing in a band/rehearsal setting compared to when you listen to them privately. I usually listen to a rough, initial version of a song idea at least 30 times on my ipod... at the work, at the gym, in the car... taking notes on lyrical ideas, changes in structure, etc. Then I return to the song and re-record a new version. You can learn so much from repeated listening.I'm interested in hearing ideas from others. Good luck! This is how I did things in my last band. Wrote everything, played all the parts and got it solidly recorded, then presented it to the band. It worked really efficiently and allowed for some complex arrangements because there was a lot of trial and error already done beforehand. Band members couldnt argue with most of it because the problems around changes were already solved. The problem was you had to have guys willing to play along. No room for egos, the best part wins. It sometimes could get a bit sterile and missed out on some magic that can only come from jamming live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted August 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 This is a process that requires revision. Make sure the players understand this. Yourself included. This brings to mind a song that I wrote where the original riff I came up with inspired the singer to write his lyrics to that melody. The bass player wrote his bass line to my original riff, then changed it to fit the lyrical melody once the lyrics were written. I realized the guitar part was stagnant since it followed he vocal melody now, and caused me to rewrite the main guitar melody around the vocals and bass line. What resulted was one of our better songs. This whole process took a few months to work itself out, but in the end, it was worth it. Being able to record these jams you do and further develop them external to he group will take you to a different level than what you are currently experiencing. All good stuff guys, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Naterel Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 Just ask them if they want to keep their cozy jobs that pay the bills or if they wanna be rock stars based on their answer you will know what to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 This thread isn't about your problems, brosephina. Nope, it's about yours...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted August 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 Nope, it's about yours...lol. Poor Ben. Isn't in on the joke. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members macadood Posted August 23, 2012 Members Share Posted August 23, 2012 delay chomp lol @ tvd was not helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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