big gm job cuts

[kannibul]

Originally posted by hairydangler You cant be serious. Its the workers that pay union dues NOT the company.

 

 

I'm sure the company pays them as well.

[SuperStrat]

Originally posted by kannibul I'm sure the company pays them as well.

 

 

huh:confused:

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by hairydangler Your points number 1 and 2 are hilarious! And wrong I might add. Unions running the company? LOL. You may accuse them of being in bed together but thats about it. Even in the 60s and 70s you could never hit your boss. And drunks aften got the benefit of the doubt back then but not anymore. Todays unions are a little more up to speed than you might think. Especially the contracts for the new tiers.

 

 

Okay big boy...

 

 

How the {censored} do you think GM got in this mess in the first place?

 

 

DO you think they ALAWSY made high wages with all these benfefits?

 

How many people can go to there boss/company...tell them this year they want "THIS"....or they'll go on strike?

 

they will tell you to not let the door hit you in the ass.

 

 

 

DO you think GM just handed over these wages and benefits because...well...damn...it's makes us all feel good?

 

 

No...the unions slowly built up the demands.

 

And yes...I *HAVE* witnessed a supervisor being struck. The union rep was called...and he got sent home for a couple days.

 

I have witnessed staggering drunkards in the plant. Sent home for 3 days (about 6 years ago.).

 

Listen...I think before you tell someone they are full of {censored}, you may want to think about it, or do some research. I worked at the GM foundry for 15 years before relocating. I know what the {censored} I ma talking about. DO you?

 

No...you don't. I am not uually this rude..but...{censored} off hairydickhead.

[kannibul]

Originally posted by SuperStrat huh:confused:

 

 

I think the Unions are taking their own cut - that's all...

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by kannibul Not hardly. A company pays more for a Union Worker, than it would for the same person working for them directly. Example: $45/hr to the Union, Union takes cut, sends $28/hr to the worker.

 

 

As hairydickhead mentioned..this isn't how it works.

 

 

It's not 45 dollars an hour for regular time either.

 

the company pays you, and you pay the union directly out of your check.

 

In a US automotive plant(GM, anyway), there are NO non-union workers. You are either union or salary. You'll see some contract workers (another union, likely), and maybe some temps scattered here and there.

[The Boogie Man]

Didn't Fender layoff a bunch of people when they moved most of their production to Mexico? And the price hasn't dropped and the quality is worse. I'm not talking Squire. It's happening all over the country, GM is just another kick in the shorts.

[converge]

Originally posted by DirtyBird Well it's kind of ironic considering all the american brands are making their cars in mexico... I swear the Japs are making as many cars in the US as the US companies are...

 

 

they are. they're opening factories, while the US companies are closing them.

[mysticaxe]

GM is a pretty clear case of building taking too many people to build a car that no one wants to buy. Because of Union deals, they haven't been able to restructure their labor and capacity issues until it was WAY too late. Now they must make drastic measures because they lost the GDP of southern Africa this quarter...

[x3k6]

{censored}em'! I own a Honda Pilot and a Subaru Outback, and they both have heated leather seats. If the greedy union bastards hadn't of required $21 and hour to sweep floors, then they wouldn't be in this predicament. UAW makes substandard {censored} for high labor rates. I'll not shed one damned tear.

 

 

21$??!

 

Try 36 and upwards.

 

My plant is getting a TON of Delphi workers right now. We produce 2.3x as much with a fraction of the number, and get paid {censored}.

 

11.50 (just got my last raise) an hour is pretty bad for the amount of work we do, and compared to what most shop workers get paid.

 

Ah well, peace out.

 

- Ryan

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by x3k6 21$??! Try 36 and upwards. My plant is getting a TON of Delphi workers right now. We produce 2.3x as much with a fraction of the number, and get paid {censored}. 11.50 (just got my last raise) an hour is pretty bad for the amount of work we do, and compared to what most shop workers get paid. Ah well, peace out. - Ryan

 

 

Must have been some big raises since I was at GM.

 

24 to 26 was the high end.

 

Sure you're not talkling OT?

[ed the yak]

Originally posted by CreamTele and on another note my next car will be a Cobalt SS or Saturn Ion Redline

 

 

I would go with the Saturn.. Between the low angle of the rear windshield and the spoiler on the back, the rear visibility on the Cobalt SS is complete crap.

[kannibul]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes As hairydickhead mentioned..this isn't how it works. It's not 45 dollars an hour for regular time either. the company pays you, and you pay the union directly out of your check. In a US automotive plant(GM, anyway), there are NO non-union workers. You are either union or salary. You'll see some contract workers (another union, likely), and maybe some temps scattered here and there.

 

 

I thought the UAW workers got their checks from UAW?

 

Otherwise, My bad!

[Stratotone]

I know how unions (and the UAW) work. My dad worked in aerospace for 33 years, and the union at rockwell was hand in hand with the UAW. Do you guys still get a newsletter called "solidarity"? I used to read that, was kinda funny actually.

Anyways, here's GM's problem in a nutshell:

I have a '96 Firebird Formula LT1 6 speed. 75,000 miles. Here's what it has consumed or broken:

2 radiators (not due to wrecks, they just started leaking. Yes, I only used the 'orange' coolant and have kept up on cooling system flushes and maintenance.)
3 clutches *I'll cop to this one being at least partially my fault, but if you're going to sell a high performance vehicle, at least make the stock clutch last 18,000 miles.
1 optispark
1 water pump
1 really bad oil leak by the main seal on the rear of the engine
1 bad headlight motor
2 bad cooling fan motors
2 catalytic converters
2 bad O2 sensors (and likely 2 more: car has four total, and I've had a check engine light on for a few weeks that I need to get checked out.)
1 bad MAF (mass air flow) unit
4 batteries. My car eats batteries so bad that I buy extended warranty ones at autozone, keep the receipt in the glove box and have the exchange down to a science.

My wife's car: 2000 Honda Civic. 103k miles. It has consumed or broken:

One battery. The stock one lasted 5 years, had to replace it this spring.

Runs like a top, We're having the timing belt changed at 105k and a tune up at the same time. Still on the stock clutch. I drive the car quite a bit too.

Oh yeah, I had to change the front brake pads. Took me 15 minutes a side and was the easiest car I've done that to.

I like driving my 5.7liter muscle car, but the Honda has really impressed me with the way it just WORKS. No drama, no problems. Next car we buy will probably be another Honda.

Pete

[Tele Vision]

G.M. {censored}ed up thusly:


1 ) In the heyday of the V-8, they were complacent as far as fuel economy was concerned;

2 ) They agreed to massive retirement benefits for workers, of which they had too many to begin with;

3) They just paid US$2 Billion to FIAT due to a failed buy option.


Q.E.D.

They're done, and the shareholders obviously agree. Too Bad, IMHO.

[P90DSL]

Originally posted by satannica To be honest- the only car to buy these days are either German or Japs! Ford - cars plagued with problems with their PSA series diesel engine Vauxhall - too pricey for the better models for what they are! Renault - You're basically buying years worth of trouble free billing for all the repairs you'll have to do that won't be covered by warranty and some models have literally one set of tyres you can actually put on them! Citroen - Good if you're going largely downhill - hello, power, hello!? Now on the other hand - Toyota, Volks, BMW and even Skoda are doing well (Skoda = made by BMW I think that's right). No wonder GM is faltering - their products are cack!

 

 

SKODA is a Volkswagen Company

[STRAT TOOL]

some one else brought up a good point. the union tells the employer how many people it takes to do something. this is where it's all {censored}ed up. i've been in construction my whole life. in jersey, you have to have three journeyman on a job before you can get an apprentice (electricians). It guarentees that every job gets one overpaid meatball to be a helper.

those union papers are scary too. i've read where they celebrate putting companies out of business. not every non union company is a sweatshop. many pay great wages, have benefits and happy employees.

I believe in merit. I want to make more money than the person that does nothing.

[STRAT TOOL]

btw, union or not, I feel bad for all the people that lost their jobs. here in edison NJ, we lost our Ford plant last year. It not only effects the Ford people, but the shops, service contractors, vendors etc. all lose out. also in jersey, we are faced with military base closings. I truly believe that good help is impossible to find and if you are an able bodied hard working person, ytou will be employed in no time.

[hairydangler]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes I am not uually this rude..but...{censored} off hairydickhead.

Thanks for the love letter psycho!

I stand by my earlier comments. You obviously know everything and can be told nothing. You really won me over with this last sentence.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by hairydangler Thanks for the love letter psycho! I stand by my earlier comments. You obviously know everything and can be told nothing. You really won me over with this last sentence.

You're the psycho. Jeeze. Thinking your some kind of historical union expert, based on your gigantic...*5* years of shop experience.


Well hairydickhead...I stand by my comments as well.

I suggest you do a little research on unions and General Motors and get back to me.

[SuperStrat]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes You're the psycho. Jeeze. Thinking your some kind of historical union expert, based on your gigantic...*5* years of shop experience. Well hairydickhead...I stand by my comments as well. I suggest you do a little research on unions and General Motors and get back to me.

 

 

Now that

[hairydangler]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes You're the psycho. Jeeze. Thinking your some kind of historical union expert, based on your gigantic...*5* years of shop experience. Well hairydickhead...I stand by my comments as well. I suggest you do a little research on unions and General Motors and get back to me.

 

 

 

So I guess I can get {censored}faced and just go punch out my boss tommorrow and not worry about a thing right? That sounds much better than my plan. I was just gonna go to work sober and do my job. Im learning alot from an expert such as yourself.

[mysticaxe]

So, I was thinking this morning, and this may be a wierd twist...

In the US, there are some pretty strict anti-monopoly laws for companies (ie they can't take up more than certain percentages of a market). This ensures that competitive pressures will force the cost of an item to be its true value. In the GM (and all of the big 3), does the presence of unionized labor form a monopoly of the labor pool artificially raising the cost of that resource? I've heard stories of some of the benefits UAW folks get, and by my understanding, its a pretty sweet package...

Again, I don't think current labor costs are GMs biggest issue, but previous labor costs are what lead to their current pension and health care issues.

Mass is a pretty non-union state. There are some damn huge companies here, and some do treat employees like crap, but most know that they have to treat their employees well (at least the best ones), otherwise they'll go somewhere else....

[Craggin]

Man, I can't believe we have 7 pages in this thread.


My take on GM job cuts...horrible business model which got exploited by a series of unforseen events.


Forget about the labor unions, pension plan, and healthcare costs for a second...GM got into a lot of trouble from their business model. (The other problems are sort of ancillary.)

GM has been losing market share for 4 decades (that's actually easy to happen when you're the top dog...everyone else nips at your feet). After losing 2 percentage points of share over the past year to log in at 25.6%, GM has reached the point at which it actually CONSUMES MORE CASH THAN IT BRINGS IN MAKING CARS, for the first time since the early 90's. GM's business model is flawed, the company has not responded to the rapid fire changes in the automotive industry. In my opinion, GM is a jack-of-all trades and master of none...rather than picking a niche in the market and doing it well, they decided to do everything. Just how many different mini-van models do they have under their different name brands?? Are all of them necessary?

Here's an interesting fact...GM dished out $7billion in capital spending for R&D last year vs. $15.3billion for Toyota.

GM still has about $18 Billion cash on hand...probably enough to meet its debt obligations for at least another 18 months or more, so I doubt they'll go bankrupt anytime soon...but I would expect to see them spin-off and layoff more of their businesses. The practice of selling a car to GMAC the second it rolls off the line, then forcing dealerships to buy the vehicle doesn't work when rates spike and sales decline.


It's easy to point a finger at the unions, but that isn't really the core problem for GM...the concessions the GM leadership made to the unions are another example of poor business decisions by the execs.


All IMO, of course. I think it is easy for those looking in from the outside...but I can't figure out why the GM leadership doesn't see it.

[SuperStrat]

Originally posted by Craggin Man, I can't believe we have 7 pages in this thread. My take on GM job cuts...horrible business model which got exploited by a series of unforseen events. Forget about the labor unions, pension plan, and healthcare costs for a second...GM got into a lot of trouble from their business model. (The other problems are sort of ancillary.) GM has been losing market share for 4 decades (that's actually easy to happen when you're the top dog...everyone else nips at your feet). After losing 2 percentage points of share over the past year to log in at 25.6%, GM has reached the point at which it actually CONSUMES MORE CASH THAN IT BRINGS IN MAKING CARS, for the first time since the early 90's. GM's business model is flawed, the company has not responded to the rapid fire changes in the automotive industry. In my opinion, GM is a jack-of-all trades and master of none...rather than picking a niche in the market and doing it well, they decided to do everything. Just how many different mini-van models do they have under their different name brands?? Are all of them necessary? Here's an interesting fact...GM dished out $7billion in capital spending for R&D last year vs. $15.3billion for Toyota. GM still has about $18 Billion cash on hand...probably enough to meet its debt obligations for at least another 18 months or more, so I doubt they'll go bankrupt anytime soon...but I would expect to see them spin-off and layoff more of their businesses. The practice of selling a car to GMAC the second it rolls off the line, then forcing dealerships to buy the vehicle doesn't work when rates spike and sales decline. It's easy to point a finger at the unions, but that isn't really the core problem for GM...the concessions the GM leadership made to the unions are another example of poor business decisions by the execs. All IMO, of course. I think it is easy for those looking in from the outside...but I can't figure out why the GM leadership doesn't see it.

 

 

Good observations.

 

Just look at Buick... how many SUV's do they have in their line-up? Nobody's buying SUV's now and they're stuck with very few "car" models.

 

That was a brilliant move for GM

[Craggin]

Originally posted by SuperStrat Good observations.

 

 

Thanks...

 

My roommate from college covers the autos for Business Week, we've discussed this very topic ad nauseam. He has an "interesting" relationship with Wagoner, Kowaleski, and Lutz.