Members uvacom-rotatt Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 No, they don't need higher margins. Bigger companies can survive very easily on lower margins as they can spread fixed costs. That all depends on how many they can sell, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Moog could manufacture a voyager for less money, if they made many more units than Moog does now.fify I'm just amazed that this thread is still going. It turned into the predictable train wreck of misinformation and people posting as if they knew how to run a business when they obviously don't.On the other hand, please don't close the thread, people need a place to vent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 This thread might be better named, "Who in their right mind would offer a business loan to someone starting an analog synth company?".In another thread I said, "Most people who hear the music you or I make can't tell it apart from a 60hz hum." Imo, the same goes for analog. The number of people who can actually recognize the audible differences between digital and analog is miniscule.I would further suggest that most folks (away from specific interest groups like KSS) who haughtily claim the to drool over analog are coincidentally very excited by major manufacturers making "distressed" guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundwave106 Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 might be better named, "Who in their right mind would offer a business loan to someone starting an analog synth company?".It would be better to give the business loan to companies, that come up with tools that easier allow niche electronics companies (like, say, a poly analog synth company) to exist. Upon further review, I did encounter the concept of "field programmable analog arrays" (among other names). One company (Anadigm) for instance offered evaluation kits specifically containing a (non-VC) filter and an EQ processing unit. Neat. While I have no idea if such tools facilitate analog synth design yet, it's easier to see boutique shops coming up with cheap poly analogs if the parts like this get better (to allow for low-cost synth-on-a-chip type deals), and if low-run PCB assembly gets cheaper, and the like. Of course, I'm sure there will be audio snobs that will never prefer such a solution and will insist on all discrete. (But hark! There be the Omega 8! Go pay your $4700!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members uvacom-rotatt Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 fify I'm just amazed that this thread is still going. It turned into the predictable train wreck of misinformation and people posting as if they knew how to run a business when they obviously don't. On the other hand, please don't close the thread, people need a place to vent hah, definitely true enough. My only point is that the argument that a big 3 company could do an analog synth cheaper relies on economies of scale. But that only works if there is sufficient demand, and any of those companies would need to make a ton on each unit to be worth it for them, because they absolutely will not sell as many of an analog monosynth as they will a workstation. Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 See, now, if I were to do it, I would eschew the newfangled components, especially specialty chips, in favor of using established standard components. It would cost more, it would be bigger, BUT: You could still repair it 20 years from now. I'm tired of gear that's not designed to last. Do they make pianos that way? Hell no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Audacity Works Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Analog synths are a peculiar subset of synthesizers. Which are subset of keyboard instruments. Which are a subset of musical instruments in general. Which are only played by a subset of the total population that has the disposable income and the free time that allows them to do that. You're not a dirt farmer in Southern Bum Phuc, and you're not assembling Nike shoes 12 hours a day with no weekends off. You're a part of a very privileged group just by the virtue of being able to read and post on the internets.Right now the economy is in the {censored}ter, so even if "Roland could...", Roland won't, because it's a risky investment.Roland could, because they've got an R&D dept. They could, because they've got a budget for R&D. They could, because they've got a bunch of factories. All of which cost good, sweet money to be retooled completely for analog synthesizers. Which is - let's be honest - a technology that's been pretty well explored, but hasn't gotten the benefits of scale, and retooling and rehiring and integrating a team in the dev process is going to be slow and costly, too.Can you agree with the above points?Ask DSI how much it cost him to design a new circuit board. Heck, just ask any circuit board designer how much it costs to spot and fix errors on a design when you've just done a run of 500. You have to get it right the first time. Even if the tools are automated and you don't need 2 people whose sole day is routing everything every day with a set of templates on a drawing board, it's still the runs that are going to cost you; because those parts have to be soldered. Setting up an SMD machine is, again, expensive.The Japanese designs are little miracles of cost-cutting where it's possible. The 303 filter is an example of that, and the JV that advertises with "16 mb (in linear format)." It's why the JP8000 isn't filled with more modulation routings; of course they could, but that'd mean a more bad-ass DSP, which'd mean more expense.You've got four lines - cost, sales, demand and engineering, and you've got to make them intersect somewhere so you end up with a profit. Profit means continuity so that line is going to get the priority, except for spectacular pet projects like OASYSes and V-Pianos where you just know that spinning off technology means you can resell the same design with only minimal R&D.So you've got a ridiculously small group of musicians whose dubious merit is that they can shout all day long on messageboards how Roland sucks because they no longer innovate, and who have no actual clue about economics 101.Yoozer, I've always liked you, but you're now my favorite poster here. Awesome, awesome, awesome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mildbill Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Well, there is a flip side to Yoozer's reasoning - the R&D work was done long ago. It shouldn't be too difficult to re-do something they've already done before. Or at least a variation on it. There wouldn't need to be re-tooling if Japanese companies wouldn't introduce new boards every few years. Design a good board in the first place and stick with it. Keep building it, and keep supporting it - don't drop stuff like a hot potato if it doesn't take off right away. Some boards that are highly sought after now were initial sales failures. Yes, the target market is very small, but if need be, take orders first, then build them. Or build batches based on how much people are still interested in it. A board may build up a certain 'mystique' after a while which can make it more desireable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 i didn't even register this until Yoozer addressed it, and since there's nothing i like beating more than a dead horse i thought i'd address this as well: So what's left, computers, euroracks and software up the wazoo. OK ... let's presume by "euroracks" you are generalising the entire boutique analogue synthesiser industry. this is a generous assumption, because "eurorack" is only one part of it. yeah i sell in that format, but i play Moog format. so back to my response to your observation: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? man ... this is the absolute best time ever for analogue synthesiser enthusiasts. thanks in part to these irritating things like the internet, globalisation, and the softsynth revolution. no ... Roland and Korg aren't making analogue synths. this is good. the market for analogues is big enough to support many small manufacturers but will probably never be big enough to be catered to by the japanese companies that steamrolled american and european manufacturers in the 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?I'd say that for some, the problem is that it doesn't say "Roland" on the unit. I can't really think of anything else...These days not only do we have a good variety of new analogs, but we also have all the old analogs still around in the used market, 99% of them for much less than they cost when they were new, especially if you adjust for inflation So yeah, this thread is a multi-page dead horse. It's a great time for synth enthusiasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 I think the confusion is "why is Big Corporation leaving money on the table by not selling me an all-analog buggywhip that they could be making such a huge profit on?" I like beating this horse corpse, it kinda bounces and smells like pop tarts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 I like analog synths because they soundz so much FATTER than digital synths. This make them better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 I think the term you want here is "phatter", otherwise we need to concern ourselves with synth obesity, and I'm just not gonna go down that road; That horse doesn't bounce and it smells funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Metrosonus Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 i have to pee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 I think the term you want here is "phatter", otherwise we need to concern ourselves with synth obesity, and I'm just not gonna go down that road; That horse doesn't bounce and it smells funny. well my point is that analog is just better. Most people that play keyboards know that analog is better...it just sounds better. Especially the moog...I would consider them the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfriendfive Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 FWIW. Here is a prototype tube Hi-Fi preamp I just finished. I designed and made the boards and had a custom chassis made which I had the company make so the back screws on with cap head screws. The ground bar is silver rod and I used silver solder though out. It took months to design, layout, spec out the parts, choose venders and build but, things can be built. If I put my mind to it I am sure I could design and build a small analog synth but, my main focus for now is tube Hi-Fi and Pro Audio gear. The next project I have to finish is a tube mic pre. There are also some other designs in the works.I removed the company name since this is still in design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 That's a very sharp piece of work ther, sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfriendfive Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 Thanx, I need do a few more things like order a black cover for the toroidal trannie to give it a more custom look and change out the pcb screws for stainless type. Also, the production PCBs are going to be blue which will make it look alot better than the tan boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members veracohr Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 That looks like one huge {censored}ing transformer. Is that normal for a tube preamp? Or is my sense of perspective just off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 Do I see silicon diodes in the power supply??? Well, that's no good, it's just not going to sound nearly as warm as it could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Plink Floyd Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 Yeah, the silicone ones just don't feel real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Carey M Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 Yoozer, I've always liked you, but you're now my favorite poster here. Awesome, awesome, awesome... YOOZER?!? I HATE YOOZER!!! Always acting so good, giving great advice and patiently explaining things to the n00bs AAARGHH!! I HATE HIM!!! :arg:- CMI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfriendfive Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 That looks like one huge {censored}ing transformer. Is that normal for a tube preamp? Or is my sense of perspective just off?It is a huge transformer but, was spec'ed out for two reasons. One is I don't want the PS to be underpowered at all and two is this one was only about $5 more than a lower spec one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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