Members soundwave106 Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 The difference is only in the fact that analog designs don't have an equivalent of Moore's Law. Well, things have gotten smaller. Discrete circuitry designs have shrunken over the years -- parts can get real small, shot off reels for fractions of cents. I wouldn't doubt that the reason the Omega 8 can fit in a 4U rack is because of this. Also, the R&D required for an analog synth could be considered less, if all you do is mimic existing circuits. There is a *lot* of boutique analogs out there these days, mostly monophonic and non-digital (eg easier to solder by hand ). There is a boutique demand for analogs but probably not a mainstream demand. This is probably why you see $3000-$5000 poly analogs instead of $999 poly analogs. Discrete parts can be real cheap, shot off reels for mere fractions of a cent. But the factory has to pay for those half-million-dollar placement / solder machines somehow, as well as the people who set up the reels, inspect the board, run the board through testers, etc. These costs add up for low runs. But modern analog polys exist. Repeat: *they exist*. Alesis Andromeda, Studio Electronics Omega 8, Vermona Perfourmer, DSI Polyevolver / Prophet 08 / Tetr4. Modern analog monos? A much bigger list -- Moog Voyager / Little Phatty, DSI Mopho / Evolver, Future Retro XS / Revolution, Radikal Technologies Spectralis, MFB SynthII, SE ATC-X / SE-1, etc. And then add up all the modulars... In vintage forums, you sometimes may notice how little many of these analogs get chatted about. Yes, the Andromeda gets talked about, but much of the vintage crowd bitched about it, especially initially after the release. All of the Omega reviews I've heard are mostly positive, but few have it. (The same applied to the Sunsyn.) The Future Retro stuff, at least the available stuff, seems little hyped sometimes, even though it's hard to find a negative review of the XS or 777. Some bitch about the new Moogs or the DSI gear. Blah, blah, etc. I am largely a fan of new analog -- the oldest analog gear in my arsenal is a Waldorf Pulse. This is in part because the vintage crowd has hyped many of the old synths to price heights well beyond what they should be. Since I'm concerned about sound and functionality vs. nostalgia, then, new analog it is. I'd rather get a new Voyager than a crusty 40 year old Minimoog, frankly, but what gets hyped on Ebay more? The Andromeda is a spectacular synth, too, but the positive hype surrounding it started increasing when it wasn't available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Well, things have gotten smaller. Discrete circuitry designs have shrunken over the years -- parts can get real small, shot off reels for fractions of cents. Yes - but not in the extreme sense DSPs and CPUs have benefited from it. Also, those smaller parts can't be soldered by hand, properly. Building your own analog chips would be a nice option, but that's a numbers game again, and I'm not really counting on a revolution in that regard (at least, not soon). Lastly; you can easily dumb down synth design to the point where you could probably let SynthMaker spit out un-optimized DSP code. Not so with actual analog circuitry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gor Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 That's a good example of how not to make your synths look...... hah - I LOVE the way his modulars look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greggybud Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'll tell you there is such a resurgence in analog, it would be neat to start seeing "boutique" synths, they same way "boutique" amps and guitars made their way into the marketplace in the late 80's early 90's This resurgence has been happening for quite a while actually. Look what we had in the 90s....black sexy synths with a 1x3 LCD display containing hundreds of menus and submenus and they were nothing but fancy sample-playback boxes. I think the resurgence will die down as more options become available from the botique designers such as DSI who did it right. And keep in mind DSI and the modern Moog are far from huge success stories. They survive, and in DSI's case have maybe 5 employees. The collectors market is forcing high vintage prices on Ebay plus the scams. And as someone mentioned, look at the actual "sold" synthesizers, and you will see many more not sold for all kinds of reasons including scams. Are you a collector or a musician? Your typical "synth" market is the person walking into Guitar Center looking at whatever Korg/Roland/Yamaha has to offer... We...pure analog fans...are a very small minority. At the end of the day the average listener doesn't care where the sound came from. The listener likes the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Hey there. Yoozer, do you always quote parcels of a what people say and then try to diffuse the mainstay of each point? This is not a debate...to prove or disprove this or that. It's a discussion with some good observations but also aesthetic and philosophical opinions that are not here to be proven or disproven. I am not a vintage synth collector....come on! What do you think the purpose of this thread is for? To encourage newer synths to emerge instead of flavor of the month software for your comfort, and convenience. By the way the SEM is not exactly the same, it uses better pots, I believe, that Tom sourced from somewhere else, but don't quote me on that. Flagship synths are a "bloody stupid idea" huh? What do you think the Prophet 5, Oberheim OB-8, Roland Jupiter 8, Korg Trident, and Yamaha CS-80 were? If they were as stupid as you mention than the countless tracks those synths have been on-save maybe the Trident-would not have existed. So "flagship workstations" are better? How much staying power do these workstations have, all digital babies, and very economical to manufacture. And with all the functions and menus and D-beams and yadda yadda yadda, are they going to become classics in the future? Every 6 months another variation of these is out. The only thing that seems to have really broke ground is the Oayss system and Karma. So what's left, computers, euroracks and software up the wazoo. Yoozer, you obviously have alot of technical knowledge, and you certainly showcase it rather pedantically but to dismiss the dreams and hopes of many who believe a "third stream" can exist seems cynical. Dreaming is what makes music so wonderful, even if your dreaming is impractical. There are many wonderful things that exist today that were once written off as impractical and quixotic. A musical tool or other form of expression that coincides with your aesthetic goals can be an inspiring thing. I think it's time for those of us who are not married to a computer to dream as well. Finally, it's not nostalgia that seems to be driving a resurgence in analog; its sound, touch and feel. On a recording, or live analog maybe this is not so obvious to the player or listener, but when you are writing and playing in the quite solitude of your mind and heart you can feel the "realness" and "electricity" surging under your hands as you play. What I'd like to start seeing is a new kind of pride in an instrument in the way a classical guitarist might feel about a hand made instrument; there is a permanance in something that can exist instirinsically on its own, in its own beauty and craftsmanship without having to be upgradable, changeable, downsizable, upsizeable, disposable. And yes, its is about what you do with it that matters, I agree fully. Collectors, blah...don't get that. But hearing a solo artist who is inspired by an intrument that was made-even manufactured I'll add- out of inspiration and dedication- that's a winning combination. I don't care what the "typical" synth market is. It is "typical" to eat steak and potatoes, so what? Synth manufactures may gain some new visionaries, like those few who saw the Andromeda from its inception to it's completion. The real visonaries know that profit is the bottom line but are not slaves to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Well, I've completely lost the point of this thread now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members augerinn Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I think one could do it, for the love of music, and to offer a great product to a select few. Would they make any money ? Probably not. The scenario I first posted was for getting into production of a synth. Not selling 50 or a hundred, but thousands. But that's how I think, I'm grandiose. If I start a synth business, I'm gonna be some serious competition to the main players (in my head, at least.....) I have actually thought of making MIDI controllers. Old school Roland A-90 style. Or Peavey DP8CM, or Midiboard.....Wood sides, metal construction, hardwood base, etc etc......Just thoughts thouhgh, I haven't taken any action. I don't have a degree in EE, for starters. I do have some good, practical, business knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Peekaboo, I know you didn't like Yoozer's answer but you might do yourself a favor and consider that he has a point.If Studio Electronics, DSI and others were making a ton of cash and setting up big factories by selling a whole bunch of analogs, then I guarantee others would follow suit. But they aren't. These operations all have a number of employees that can be counted with one hand and sometimes there's a few fingers left!Do you think Roland or Korg look at DSI's sales and go "wow, I gotta get me a slice of that market"? No chance.Repeat after me: analogs are a niche market. Analogs are a niche market... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I think it's better that analogs stay a niche market. Let them remain a boutique item for those that appreciate them and are willing to spend the money it takes to make them. There is no mass market for analog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mate_stubb Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Peekaboo, you dream. The analogue synth market is small, and populated by opinionated enthusiasts who think everything is {censored}e if it doesn't have the exact feature set and sounds that they want. The ONLY way to serve this type of market is by small boutique manufacturers. The barrier to entry is a lot smaller for someone making analogue modules than a complex computer controlled polyphonic analogue synth, which is why the modular market is somewhat good right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Mate_stubb wins the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ClavAnother Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 besides, the P5 was not a flagship, the P10 was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Hey Christian Rock, yeah but the problem with Yoozer's answer is that he seems love how is own points sound to himself. Condescending attitudes remind me of overly pedantic professors who hoard knowledge for themselves and will only speak when they want to prove something wrong so they can feel more intelligent. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but THIS response seemed just that. Yoozer is great guy, but this particular time he seemed to have a chip on his shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Woah woah woah hey now. Yoozer was trying to address your points, I don't think he was trying to be condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Hey Christian Rock, yeah but the problem with Yoozer's answer is that he seems love how is own points sound to himself. Condescending attitudes remind me of overly pedantic professors who hoard knowledge for themselves and will only speak when they want to prove something wrong so they can feel more intelligent. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but THIS response seemed just that. Yoozer is great guy, but this particular time he seemed to have a chip on his shoulder. I've only been here for a bout a year and a half and I've seen him answer this question a few times (and at least a couple more times on another forum, too). That might be why I can't see that he was rude or anything, I think you just didn't like how emphatic and matter-of-fact he was about his answer. And obviously you didn't like the answer itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Who says a thread has to be "won". So if I posted how great it would be to make a synth the size of a plastic spoon that you can make millions off of and sell thousands of not mention throw away after using it like a disposable camera, you would be floored. Not you, Christian Rock, I am directing my response to Electric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 You're right, I would be. Do you have details on this? I'd like it to have 1000 note polyphony and it should have an arp. Oh, and it should have SUPERSAW. (I kid. No, a thread need not be "won", I was just agreeing with him.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Alright bro, fair enough, You kid! And so should I-he he. I guess I got a little worked up! Still, Yoozer could have a taken a slightly more "humble" stance this time. Can we at least agree on that even if you do agree with him over me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Cool. I will agree that you disagree with Yoozer's agreeable disagreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 You clever dog! So be it. Still, addressing something as "nonsense" which he did, is arrogant. Yes matter of fact, yes backed by emphasis and perfect grammar, but arrogant nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 But perhaps it was nonsense :poke: Get over it dude, it's just the internetz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Well, what can I say? ANYWAY:I'm curious now, what's your motivation for your original question? Are you thinking of making and selling analog gear yourself? I've thought about doing it; I've got some ideas floating around in my head, but I don't have illusions that I could sell them by the truckload.edit: Besides, it's really, really hard to leave a steady paycheck. If I really wanted to do it, I'd have to seriously commit, and frankly, I'm a chicken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'll get over it bro, don't worry. But I still think I made some good obervations despite whether or not he or you thought it was nonsense. Reading what I said in hindsight, I certainly wouldn't classify it ALL that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ClavAnother Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Oh, and it should have SUPERSAW. then it would have to be a spork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Peekaboo Fuzzy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Hey Electric. Nah, I am not thinking about starting my own synth company, although I have had some really cool ideas as far as what I would add featurewise. I started this thread, because I like change. I got so sick of seeing how a majority of press releases for new product on H.C is software and stupid stuff, like new drum sneakers with patented sole for better grip-some crap like that. And so much of it becomes redundant; one slight variation of a formula that keeps working. It's as though, the stuff is just churned out, out of boredom or complacency, or lack of imagination-the exact opposite of introducing something that is more iconoclastic and dare I say, less bottom line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.