What has happened to the US ??

[Ultrahighgain]

Originally posted by indespise And let's think back to what western society was 1000 years ago...... Most of Europe was basically the same as an Islamic fundamentalist state, but Christianity was in power. That's not a world I want to live in.

Don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity. I expect you'll say that they're the same, but they are not.

[charliedango]

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain Don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity. I expect you'll say that they're the same, but they are not.

That's the beauty of the US. We evolve principals. I know christianity was formed long before America, but it's those same ideals, determination and drive to be who we are that started America in the first place.

[peehoo]

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain Don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity. I expect you'll say that they're the same, but they are not.

What are you getting at? Of course they are not the same but all Catholics are Christians while the opposite isn't true. So its not like these are two totally different things alltogether:confused:

[indespise]

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain Don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity. I expect you'll say that they're the same, but they are not.

I know quite well what the differences are, considering I was raised a "full gospel" christian, went to christian school, and I was a very well studied, sincere christian who could've been a pastor by now if I had wanted to. I know the mindset I'm dealing with here from firsthand experience, I have the ability to look at it from the view of a conservative christian.
Modern "protestant" christianity and catholocism are different, but protestant christianity has it's roots in catholocism whether or not they want to accept it. It's still based on a book that the Catholics had total control of for a LONG time, the same book Catholocism used to rule in a way not at all different from the way modern Islamic leaders use their book to rule. It's still centered around literalist beliefs cooked up by what became the Catholic church, the iconoclasts who did all they could to erase original christianity along with anything else they didn't like.
If you need another example that fits our protestant christianity better, look at the US witch burnings. The fact that that could happen at all (legally, I might add) should speak volumes to you about what kind of society this was, what kind of things would be done to someone who spoke out (or lived in a way that was) against Christian beliefs? Go over to the middle east and say something bad about Allah or Muhammed, and I'm betting the reaction you'd get would be similar.

[Ultrahighgain]

Originally posted by peehoo What are you getting at? Of course they are not the same but all Catholics are Christians while the opposite isn't true. So its not like these are two totally different things alltogether:confused:

Saying you're a Christian or claiming to act in the name of Christianity doesn't make it so. I realize it's a tough concept.

[Ultrahighgain]

Originally posted by peehoo all Catholics are Christians

No...not at all.

[boogienights]

My "agenda" here is freedom, freedom for all, not just freedom in context of what conservative christains want.

No your' agenda is to demonize all christians by smearing them individually and as a whole group every chance you get, mostly by being ignorant and trying to draw parallels between Christianity and things you know people will see as bad, like Islamic fundamentalist states.Oh and keep mixing truths and half truths with a little bit of twisting/lieing. Keep telling only the parts of storys/history that you want people to hear. Good job! Tell the same lie over and over and eventually people WILL start to believe it.

I'm not a homosexual or a satanist, although the way you mention it implies that there is something wrong with either one

I didn't mean to imply anything I was just seeing the depth of, or what the root of your' beliefs are.

Like I was saying I'm really enjoying your' posts.

[charliedango]

The "Catholic = Christian" argument is a dead-end. Catholics are Catholics. Christians are Christians.

[Ultrahighgain]

Originally posted by indespise I know quite well what the differences are, considering I was raised a "full gospel" christian, went to christian school, and I was a very well studied, sincere christian who could've been a pastor by now if I had wanted to. I know the mindset I'm dealing with here from firsthand experience, I have the ability to look at it from the view of a conservative christian. Modern "protestant" christianity and catholocism are different, but protestant christianity has it's roots in catholocism whether or not they want to accept it. It's still based on a book that the Catholics had total control of for a LONG time, the same book Catholocism used to rule in a way not at all different from the way modern Islamic leaders use their book to rule. It's still centered around literalist beliefs cooked up by what became the Catholic church, the iconoclasts who did all they could to erase original christianity along with anything else they didn't like. If you need another example that fits our protestant christianity better, look at the US witch burnings. The fact that that could happen at all (legally, I might add) should speak volumes to you about what kind of society this was, what kind of things would be done to someone who spoke out (or lived in a way that was) against Christian beliefs? Go over to the middle east and say something bad about Allah or Muhammed, and I'm betting the reaction you'd get would be similar.

All I can say is that the folks that you've cited...all those evil deeds that were done such as the witch trials...

Those folks weren't exactly following the example set by Jesus were they?

[Ultrahighgain]

Originally posted by charliedango The "Catholic = Christian" argument is a dead-end. Catholics are Catholics. Christians are Christians.

It needs to be addressed, because many folks don't get it.

[boogienights]

I personally don't dig Catholics beliefs, what bit I know of them anyways. I don't like organized religion at all, Christians are just Christians, that's it, it's not a religion, it's a personal relationship with Jesus. Catholics are NOT all Christians.



I'm curious what Christian values are so bad I've heard referance to several times now, please list them out for me.

[indespise]

Originally posted by boogienights No your' agenda is to demonize all christians by smearing them individually and as a whole group every chance you get, mostly by being ignorant and trying to draw parallels between Christianity and things you know people will see as bad, like Islamic fundamentalist states.Oh and keep mixing truths and half truths with a little bit of twisting/lieing. Keep telling only the parts of storys/history that you want people to hear. Good job! Tell the same lie over and over and eventually people WILL start to believe it. I didn't mean to imply anything I was just seeing the depth of, or what the root of your' beliefs are. Like I was saying I'm really enjoying your' posts.

Call it a twist or lie all you want, the mindset is the same. We have seperation of church and state for a reason, and Christian fundamentalists are doing all they can to weaken it.
Am I suggesting that all christians are extremists? No, and neither are all Mulsims extremists. It's the "fundies" like the thread starter who want to impose their religion's morals on the nation (or the world, for that matter) that I have a problem with.

Also, please point out these half truths and lies you're accusing me of. Oh, and those parts of history I'm bringing up, why don't we just erase those from the books instead of learning form them? I brought them up because they are relevant to the discussion.

[boogienights]

Lets not forget about drawing conclusions for us all also.

[indespise]

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain All I can say is that the folks that you've cited...all those evil deeds that were done such as the witch trials... Those folks weren't exactly following the example set by Jesus were they?

No, they weren't, but one could argue that they were following the example of God in the Old Testament. The Muslims waging jihad on infidels aren't doing a good job of living the life that their religion truly teaches either. It has been twisted around by those in power, just as Christianity was to justify the witch burnings, the crusades, the inquisition, etc.

[boogienights]

The history you bring up is irrelivent, different times, different group of people.

[boogienights]

The old testement is also irrelivent now, you know what Christians believe you're smart you know why. People also drove around on horse and buggies back then, and bloodletting was "cutting" edge for disease.

[IntoTheFall]

All I know is I'll never let an old guy running a Church tell me what to do.

I believe in God and I believe in the teachings of Jesus and Moses but I do not ever believe some bull{censored} fed to me through some idiot in a priest outfit.

I don't think gay marriage would hurt anyone, not even the kids they raise. I don't think most responsible men-women parents show so much affection in front of their children that their children automatically want to have sex, so I feel like any responsible men-men or women-women marriage would never make a child feel like he/she needs to have sex with someone of the same gender. Besides I feel that homosexuality is a genetics thing. Who seriously would want to choose a gay lifestyle? It's a life full of ridicule and hard times. I don't think anyone would just choose to live the hard life.

[indespise]

History is not irrelevant, those who don't learn from history's mistakes are doomed to repeat it. We aren't to far off from a new holy war in today's world, precisely because people (namely Muslims, Christians, and orthodox Jews in this case) have failed to learn from the past.

The Old Testament being irrelavent (due to the New Covenant) in cases where it is convenient is funny to me, because in learning what I have about the origins of Christianity, I understand why that's there on a whole new level. If you are curious of what I'm talking about, I highly reccomend reading The Jesus Mysteries. Besides that, the old/new covenant thing doesn't really fit into this discussion, I'm not calling someone a heretic for eating pork or working on the Sabbath.

[peehoo]

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain No...not at all.

Now we can get into different definitions and semantics here, but the bottom line IMHO is that those who believe in Christ are Christians. I have yet to hear a Catholic say that he is not Christian. Or a Protestant for that matter or an Orthodox... They all consider themselves Christians.

[bdegrande]

Catholics are Christians. So are Protestants of all sorts. Christians believe in Jesus as God, rather than as somehting else (Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet, for example).

Anyway, can the wackos stop wasting the government's time with these issues? At the very minimun, how about consolidating the nonsense and let Congress get on with things that matter.

Propose an amendment banning flag burning by illegal immigrant gay married couples, have a vote, and be done with it.

[Loghead]

Is this a political or a religious thread?

[potaetoes]

Originally posted by Loghead Is this a political or a religious thread?

for some, there's no difference between the two, which makes them inept at discussing either.

[potaetoes]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Ann Coulter is RIGHT!

haha!

[Towelie v2.0]

Originally posted by favata5 Could someone please explain to me why legislation couldnt get passed to ban flag burning but its ok in some states for Homosexuals to be married and in most schools children cant say God?? What the hell has happened?? Makes me wish I could turn the clocks back to the ol fashioned times..you know when God mattered,and men worked while the women stayed home and took care of the domestic jazz,and children had a monny and a daddy! Today its just getting twisted it used to be Adam and Eve in the Bible,,whats next Adam and Steve????

The US got fat. It began with WWII when women became self sufficient from working in factories whilst the menfolk went off to war. After the war when the mens came back, they found their old ladies banging the strays next door. Married men tried to regain their households, but their wives had a shameless tatste of independence and the kids were fatherless and w/o structure for too long. America found itself in a newly boosted economy, and focus shifted away from traditional family life to modern materialism. Power and money were easily attainable in the new system, and drugs shifted the consciousness of abandoned American youth toward something instantly gratifying. The Age Of Aquarious finally gave young people the kind of escapism which allowed them to be completely free of traditional rules of society. A freedom which matured into the Rock N Roll excesses of the 1980's. In the wake of a newly realized disseases such as Herpes and Aids, along with an economy sucked dry by a previous generation of post-hippies and with morality at an all-time low, the youth of America gave way once again to complacency within existing social structures, and manifested itself as perhaps the most hopeless and apathetic generation in America to date; the 1990's. Music, particularly Rock N Roll of various types, was once the church of American Youth; full of energey, raw emotion, phylosphy, religion and the like, the groups they followed were unique identifiers of individuality. In the 90's, however, the lax sounds of women and acoustic ballads marked the finality of the golden years of America.

We've crested the glass mountain, now heading down the other side. We've become spoiled, complacent, apathetic, without individual voice, and above all, self-serving. Morality, common courtesy, faith in God and our fellow man - the value of the spoken word - have been replaced with television, SUV's, cell phones, the Internet and chat rooms. Personal character growth has been replaced with the sense that individual opinion doesn't matter, that there's no power in numbers, and that children are the true rulers of the households of parents too busy to guide them.

History most certainly repeats, and America will eventually prove to be its own demise. We're like the fattened calf heading for the slaughter.

(I might be off with a few things there).

[potaetoes]

Originally posted by Towelie v2.0 (I might be off with a few things there).

not too far off - but mass production/mass consumerism began before WWII with Ford's production models and Keynes's welfare state and mass consumerism ideas, commonly referred to as the "Fordist/Keynesian Paradigm"

the bretton woods agreements after WWII established the western economic stranglehold on most of the world. the war certainly played a role, but in itself wasn't responsible for things being how they are. it essentially created the opportunity to implement the ideas that were already around. they would have been implemented some other way, in some other fashion, eventually.

edit: forgot to say... yes, it will be the demise of our economic superiority, eventually. it's a boom-bust cycle, and with every subsequent boom and bust, the peaks and valleys get more extreme. eventually there will be a suicidal boom, and/or a bust that proves devastating enough that the system will essentially collapse, disintegrate, and be consumed by a different system. china is following a similar path that we did, only with a different mechanism for implementing it, and they're learning from our mistakes. in all likelihood they will achieve greater economic stability and a longer turn in the driver's seat than we have enjoyed. when the big players start evacuating the US economy, keep your eyes open. it's no coincidence that gates and buffett are beginning to orchestrate their withdrawals.