Members Lgehrig4 Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by aliensex Don't get indignant when you face a backlash from people whose lifestyles you just deemed unnatural. Don't mind backlash, but twisting my words sometimes irks me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blargh Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 And if you're all about preserving the crumbling institution of marriage, how about attacking the problem at its source? Hint: it's not the gays. I'm sure someone here can pull up the stats on divorce rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aliensex Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by Lgehrig4 You'll have to excuse my limited vocabulary. I may not always choose the best words to express my views. Never said "unnatural". Did a baby with 12 fingers develop normally? Is cancer a normal/healthy growth of cells or a disease? All of these are natural yes. I have a heart murmur. Is it natural? Yes. Does my heart beat like a normally functioning heart should? No. Marriage evolved is what I said. Your example proves this. You have to ask yourself why these things aren't desirable. I'd answer that cancer and heart murmur aren't good because they cause suffering, and most of us would probably agree. I think the best definition for normalcy is its prevalence in a given context, and homosexuals are quite prevalent in most developed societies. Homosexuals can't change what they are without suffering, and society discriminating against homosexuals causes them suffering. Therefore discriminating against homosexuals isn't good.Note that I'm using a really simple ethical framework here for the sake of argumentation; this is not meant to be an endorsement of utilitarianism or whatever. It's just that most people can usually find common ground in deciding that suffering isn't desirable. My point about marriage was that it didn't originally have much to do with ensuring that two people with different sexes procreate and raise a child together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lgehrig4 Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by BeyondDriven Everything that is claimed to be "unnatural' is either arguably very natural, arguably irrelevant to what the laws should be, or without any relevancy to what should be treated as moral and immoral. Just because some trait or activity isn't the "norm" among humans doesn't mean that it is "unnatural" and therefore "wrong." I can't believe you even argued that marriage would be "unnatural" because it cannot produce children, the supposed ostensibly natural end of marriage. To begin with, is it valid to assume that the "natural" end of marriage (or sex in general) is procreation, and that therefore non-procreative couples cannot reasonably be allowed to marry? I think not. There are two ways this premise can be refuted: by showing what its logical conclusions would be if actively employed, and by taking apart its philosophical basis. If we were to take this premise seriously, there would have to be a radical change in the laws surrounding marriages. For one thing, no infertile couples would be allowed to marry. This would include both younger people who are infertile due to health issues as well as older people who are infertile due to the progress of old age. But who would agree to that? Once again I never said unnatural. Imperfection can be natural. I think it is clear to all of us when something goes wrong. I feel homosexuality is an abberation of nature just like someone with an extra limb. If homosexuality was the intent (I only say intent b/c I don't know of any way to put this) of nature we woldn't be having this conversation.Lastly, I thought I made it clear that the only differences b/t Hets & Homs were sexual preferences. This means that I respect them no differently than I would Hets. IMO the beneifts of marriage in our society should be reserved for het couples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doug's Tubes Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by favata5 Could someone please explain to me why legislation couldnt get passed to ban flag burning but its ok in some states for Homosexuals to be married and in most schools children cant say God?? What the hell has happened?? Makes me wish I could turn the clocks back to the ol fashioned times..you know when God mattered,and men worked while the women stayed home and took care of the domestic jazz,and children had a monny and a daddy! Today its just getting twisted it used to be Adam and Eve in the Bible,,whats next Adam and Steve???? Not having the personal fortitude to slog through this entire thread in case someone has already had the same point of view, I'll comment on this. It's not just any legislation, they were looking to amend the constitution. So while it may be legal for homosexuals to marry in some states, dont look for a constitutional amendment any time ever for that to happen. They will leave it up to the states. And while they were at it, why single out flag burning? There are many ways to desecrate the flag, if they were going to pass any meaningful legislation(good luck), then they should work on a complete bill and include them all. The same thing happened when the various asshole state and local politicians jumped on the cellphone ban, as if thats the only thing that can distract a driver. Tell that to the truck driver that plowed into the back of my 1983 Volvo and then came to my window to see if I was alright covered with his cream cheese and jelly sandwhich proclaiming that noone was at fault!Face it, politicians on both sides of the fence are proving themselves more useless every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aliensex Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by Lgehrig4 If homosexuality was the intent (I only say intent b/c I don't know of any way to put this) of nature we woldn't be having this conversation. I understand this, but nature never intends anything, nature never aims for anything, nature has no goal and no motivation. If you want to use your chosen semantic, homosexuality is the intent of nature simply because it exists. Then, it's up to us to determine via moral judgements which of these things that nature intended (i.e. things that happened) are good and which ones are bad.I personally feel that homosexuality is as natural as can be, that homosexuality isn't bad because it in and of itself causes no suffering, and that the reason for this conversation is to ultimately rid the internet of these sorts of conversations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boogienights Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 I spent 14 months in Kuwait and Iraq serving this country with my friends & extended family and thankfully I'm still here today. The biggest reason (there are others) the men & woman I know joined the military is love for the U.S. and what it stands for (for most people anyway) and the physical/tangable symbol of that being the U.S. flag, To all those who would burn the flag we fight for {censored} YOU. To the people who support it I undestand your' reasoning but you're not on my team. You need to learn to apreciate what you have, nobody in this country seems to care about anything anymore but themselves, and you are the people I don't care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boogienights Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 nature never intends anything, nature never aims for anything, nature has no goal and no motivation. If you want to use your chosen semantic, homosexuality is the intent of nature I don't know but boys have a penis and girls have a vagina, to me it really couldn't get anymore clear than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aliensex Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by boogienights I don't know but boys have a penis and girls have a vagina, to me it really couldn't get anymore clear than this. You can stick a weewee in a mouth or a butt also, fyi. The fact that sticking it in a hoohah sometimes results in a baby is a fortuitous coincidence, just like everything natural ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lgehrig4 Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by boogienights I don't know but boys have a penis and girls have a vagina, to me it really couldn't get anymore clear than this. Amen!Between this and the "gun carrying" thread I think I found a new friend! Keep it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blargh Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by boogienights I spent 14 months in Kuwait and Iraq serving this country with my friends & extended family and thankfully I'm still here today. The biggest reason (there are others) the men & woman I know joined the military is love for the U.S. and what it stands for (for most people anyway) and the physical/tangable symbol of that being the U.S. flag, To all those who would burn the flag we fight for {censored} YOU. To the people who support it I undestand your' reasoning but you're not on my team. You need to learn to apreciate what you have, nobody in this country seems to care about anything anymore but themselves, and you are the people I don't care about. No offense, but I don't want to be on the "appreciative of the government even when it does everything it can to restrict what I can do" team. That's a dangerous road to go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boogienights Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 No offense, but I don't want to be on the "appreciative of the government even when it does everything it can to restrict what I can do" team. That's a dangerous road to go down. Like I said, nobody apreciates what they have anymore. I know a couple dangerous roads I'd like to show you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Once again I never said unnatural. Imperfection can be natural. I think it is clear to all of us when something goes wrong. I feel homosexuality is an abberation of nature just like someone with an extra limb. If homosexuality was the intent (I only say intent b/c I don't know of any way to put this) of nature we woldn't be having this conversation. Lastly, I thought I made it clear that the only differences b/t Hets & Homs were sexual preferences. This means that I respect them no differently than I would Hets. IMO the beneifts of marriage in our society should be reserved for het couples. i'm going to invoke godwin's law (a.k.a. internet rule #4) here:hitler would have agreed with most of what you've been saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boogienights Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 No offense, but I don't want to be on the "appreciative of the government even when it does everything it can to restrict what I can do" team. That's a dangerous road to go down. Don't confuse my team with the Government, I'm talking about people that put on uniforms to defend YOU! It seems you just comprehend what you want and spew anti-government statements as fast as you can don't you, you are eager to spread your' beliefs, go ahead and pick apart/twist what I say and use it for your' own purpose,what you say doesn't matter and nobody cares. In the end boys still have a penis and girls still have a vagina. Between this and the "gun carrying" thread I think I found a new friend! Keep it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boogienights Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 hitler would have agreed with most of what you've been saying. Potaetoes what's your' point? That Lgehrig4 is gonna try killing Jewish people? That's pretty ridiculas, and these issues have nothing in common, maybe you were saying that to be funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DirtyBird Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by boogienights Like I said, nobody apreciates what they have anymore. I know a couple dangerous roads I'd like to show you. I think what we're saying is that we appreciate our right to free speech and we believe that's what makes America so great.We think banning flag-burning undermines this.I think flag-burners are assholes and vigilante justice would be fine with me! But I dotn think we need to ban it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aliensex Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by boogienights Potaetoes what's your' point? That Lgehrig4 is gonna try killing Jewish people? That's pretty ridiculas, and these issues have nothing in common, maybe you were saying that to be funny. Hitler firmly believed that homosexuality is unnatural. I'm very happy that Lgehrig4 isn't drawing the conclusion that they should be eliminated.Also, why do you keep saying that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina? This is a fact that everyone (I hope) is familiar with, but I don't see how it implies anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 496dart Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 just like Michael Savage says-- "LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISORDER--AND ITS DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by boogienights Don't confuse my team with the Government, I'm talking about people that put on uniforms to defend YOU! It seems you just comprehend what you want and spew anti-government statements as fast as you can don't you, you are eager to spread your' beliefs, go ahead and pick apart/twist what I say and use it for your' own purpose,what you say doesn't matter and nobody cares. In the end boys still have a penis and girls still have a vagina. that's just it though. you're fighting for americans, not a flag, not a symbol. you're fighting for what the flag represents, not the actual flag. the flag represents liberty gained by revolution against oppressive government. if our government outlawed our right to invoke its very meaning by burning it in protest, it would no longer have that meaning at all. it would then simply be a new symbol of oppression. is that what you fought for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rgf Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Amen! Between this and the "gun carrying" thread I think I found a new friend! Keep it up Amen to both of you upstanding young men!!! I've got a couple of kindred spirits in here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jarick Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by favata5 Could someone please explain to me why legislation couldnt get passed to ban flag burning but its ok in some states for Homosexuals to be married and in most schools children cant say God?? What the hell has happened?? Makes me wish I could turn the clocks back to the ol fashioned times..you know when God mattered,and men worked while the women stayed home and took care of the domestic jazz,and children had a monny and a daddy! Today its just getting twisted it used to be Adam and Eve in the Bible,,whats next Adam and Steve???? Dude, I'm a conservative, and I don't agree with homosexuality, secularization, and families falling away, but you're not only fighting a losing battle here, it comes off way over the top.Musicians are overwhelming liberal and the only reason I can see you posting here is to start {censored}... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rgf Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes that's just it though. you're fighting for americans, not a flag, not a symbol. you're fighting for what the flag represents, not the actual flag. the flag represents liberty gained by revolution against oppressive government. if our government outlawed our right to invoke its very meaning by burning it in protest, it would no longer have that meaning at all. it would then simply be a new symbol of oppression. is that what you fought for? Re-read your statement.....it really makes no sense.....'you are fighting for americans, not a symbol'.....very next sentence....'the flag represents liberty gained by revolution against oppressive government'....Question - If the flag 'represents' something, wouldn't that make it a symbol?Now go sit on your avatar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boogienights Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 We think banning flag-burning undermines this I understand that perfectly, but I still think that act should be illegal. That act really should be an exeption, I don't care if you call George Bush an asshole on CNN or write a book about how much you love sucking other guys penisis or whatever, but I feel flag burning should be an exeption, and if I see someone doing it in my presence, I will make sure they regret it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DirtyBird Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by rgf Re-read your statement.....it really makes no sense.....'you are fighting for americans, not a symbol'.....very next sentence....'the flag represents liberty gained by revolution against oppressive government'....Question - If the flag 'represents' something, wouldn't that make it a symbol? Now go sit on your avatar! How can you justify outlawing one of the very things that defines our country? (flag burning) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lefchr Posted June 29, 2006 Members Share Posted June 29, 2006 Originally posted by favata5 Could someone please explain to me why legislation couldnt get passed to ban flag burning but its ok in some states for Homosexuals to be married and in most schools children cant say God?? What the hell has happened?? Makes me wish I could turn the clocks back to the ol fashioned times..you know when God mattered,and men worked while the women stayed home and took care of the domestic jazz,and children had a monny and a daddy! Today its just getting twisted it used to be Adam and Eve in the Bible,,whats next Adam and Steve???? maybe god is gay and likes to get a big cock in his ass, or is a women and loves do have her face burried in a warm {censored}. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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