"talent"???

[wwwjd]

a lot to respond to, some of it not worth anyone's time so I'll be direct.

 

LILLITHKITTEN:

- quoting the dictionary is the ONLY way to maintain we are discussing the same definition of the same word. What would YOU suggest we use for that purpose?

- thanks for the advice(?) about food writing. I take it my point was lost on you?

- Trance was not MAINSTREAM at the time. It's barely MAINSTREAM now. Pre internet (which is the time frame I am talking about) it was pretty hard to find. Not sure how any of that negates my perspectives on music?

- why slam Winham Hill and HOS? How many record companies have you opened? They brought interesting music to diverse markets.... following the thread you would understand why I brought them up. I'm diverse, not "closed minded" as claimed. I like variety.

- do my 2700 posts make me out as a troll? Are you reading on the same internet as me? And your repeated name calling kind of invalidates YOUR whole post.

 

SUIT&TIE, I was not calling DJ Shadow a "Hack" but the work itself a "HACK JOB" meaning chopping (hacking) and pasting parts together - tape or digital whatever - sorry if that implied I was calling him a "Hack", was not intended. TO ME, the music sounded "talentless and hacked together" that's all.

 

UNFED:

- I used trance simply as an example of diversity. At least most of it has some sort of musical bases unlike much of Rap. It's not amazing, just good background filler for me.

- I guess I am missing what you expect out of kybdwizd's "DEMOS". He is showing off they keyboard's sounds, not his SONG WRITTING SKILLZ. ????

 

I won't bother responding to the myriad of offense responses that delve into line by line dissections as a form of debate. That ends up being worthless and just puts people on the defensive. This isn't my first day on the interanet and I know how these things go.

I've said my peace, people will disagree.

The cool part it, it blossomed into it's own discussion and people are posting their perspectives... which is the best way for this to go: opening people's minds to alternative ideas. Great stuff! Keep it up.

Unless you just resort to name calling which is pretty much pointless.

 

Chip: ".. I can't remember the truth!" hahahaha great stuff!!!

loved all your other comments. yes it is ALWAYS about money: love government, music, life, war, even death etc etc etc

 

 

In the end, a lot of people here are making many great points. It all adds up to many parts in this soup we call talent.

[liliththekitten]

Quoting the dictionary is something pedants do. I don't think anyone's disagreeing about the meaning of "talent" - people are just challenging your views on music and illogical arguments.

 

Not sure if you're trolling. I don't care either way.

 

Your food analogy just makes you sound pretentious. Don't drop your monocle into your tea! Actually lobster and prime rib is some pretty freaking mundane stuff. If you really want to use a food analogy - no, some music is McDonald's, some is burritos or chicken vindaloo... nowt wrong with any of it.

 

When were you listening to trance, "pre-internet" when it was in shampoo commercials?

 

Windham Hill != "Quality Music"

 

"oooh, I was listening to Windham Hill when they were *underground*" *snicker*

 

Not calling names - I don't like using ad homs - just having fun.

[soundwave106]

Windham Hill != "Quality Music"

This is a great example of {censored}ting on talented musicians because one may not like the music style.
Same with Hearts of Space (even if, with ambient, it's more of a programming / texture talent) and trance (programming / beat talent).

Even the cheesiest pop music takes some talent to write.

Of course, the most talented aren't necessarily the most successful. Success is some talent, some hard work, and some zeitgeist.

[gregwar]

wwwjd please provide an example of your fabulous musicianship. if my face remains unmelted you may now surrender all of your synths and/or gerrs to me lol.

 

in all srslyness now that music is ret4rded this is an excellent opportunity for someone to prog rock the masses. no competition = lots of opportunity, if u have the chops.

[liliththekitten]

This is a great example of {censored}ting on talented musicians because one may not like the music style. Same with Hearts of Space (even if, with ambient, it's more of a programming / texture talent) and trance (programming / beat talent).

Windham Hill made cheesy 80s yuppie muzak. Talent - debatedly, if WH artists had it, it was wasted - doesn't automatically lead to good music. Hearts of Space I just know as a show on NPR my parents had on sometimes - some of it was hella cheesy, some might have been good like Eno but I forget. I didn't specifically mention HOS bec I don't have an opinion on it beyond that. Trance, it depends what you mean when you say "trance".

But wwjd is the one singling out one particular type of music that he thinks sucks and is made by no-talents - not the rest of us. There's no point in wwjd "{censored}ting" on hip-hop if he he likes types of music that are possibly even more popularly reviled and regarded as talent-free like new age and trance.

[zoink]

Well, counter-examples notwithstanding, what wwjd is describing is quite real, and anyone who hasn't noticed it just isn't looking. As to whether it's prevalent or just an anomaly, that's up to anyone to decide. One's perspective depends heavily on the circles in which you move as a musician.

True, there have been talentless hacks in every era putting out music that is insipid and derivative. And it's also true that there are very talented people making good music today.

But something has definitely changed. There are a lot of people making music today who think not in terms of notes but of phrases and loops. They don't compose so much as graft. And no, I'm not an old man yelling at kids to get out of his yard. It's just a fact.

Make no mistake; musicianship is not dead. But the population of "music makers" has broadened in recent years. We can even set aside the conversation about "talent" for a moment. What I'm describing is the decline of disciplined, music-theory-informed skill and a certain resourcefulness as requisite in the making of music.

One could argue that bubblegum had always been bubblegum, and garbage has always smelled the same. But I would respond that the garbage made today smells better, and that ironically this is not a good thing. It's much easier to sound "good" (read: derivative) without having to work at it. At some point we have to accept that much of what we're hearing is arrived at through means that are too pre-fab and automated to be considered novel or interesting. Even Tiny Tim's "Tip Toe Through the Tulips" required musical skill to execute.

[paulo_]

that was a lot more eloquent than pointing fingers at black people.

[soundwave106]

One could argue that bubblegum had always been bubblegum, and garbage has always smelled the same. But I would respond that the garbage made today smells better, and that ironically this is not a good thing. It's much easier to sound "good" (read: derivative) without having to work at it. At some point we have to accept that much of what we're hearing is arrived at through means that are too pre-fab and automated to be considered novel or interesting. Even Tiny Tim's "Tip Toe Through the Tulips" required musical skill to execute.

 

This is probably true; but I don't know how much of this is the marketplace and the business. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if a lot of producers could play a piano, just for speed reasons alone. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if a lot of producers had pretty decent music background -- maybe not to the level of a top notch classical or jazz player, but enough knowledge of hooks and beat to compose the pop they make. One of the disadvantages of ITB methods is that it's all too easy to sound not human, however... that's kind of one flaw I feel that is present in so many of today's club chart toppers. That's what sells, today, I guess.

[veracohr]

4. if one is not celebrating and enhancing life, what IS one doing? The opposite perhaps? No thanks.

 

 

I'm going to commit the sin of taking someone's comment out of context and using it for another purpose.

 

When Lou Reed was asked about the Velvet Underground song "Heroin", he said "it's not for or against it, just about it." I'd say that could easily apply to all music. It doesn't have to celebrate life, it can just comment on it and still be good.

[wwwjd]

Zoink, I want to hire you as my writer. You said it better than I did in much less space.

 

Funny thing: today as I listened to top pop radio (as I often do) I heard a Kesha song that was really nothing more than basic Trance with her auto-tuned over it. TRANCE! Right there on TOP40 pop radio, prime time. There for everyone to enjoy I guess. It's been slowly working its way in for a long time now - up from the shampoo/salon advertisements wouldn't you say? I guess I'm just ahead of my time in my choices.

I was actually picking on "RAP"... you know "sold a gun to my ganstas, and smacked up my ho, got me on death row bla bla bla bla" TALKING over a stolen looped drum beat doesn't impress me as a lot of "talent". The "HIP HOP" I hear has a little more musical action and even some SINGING in it! yeah, I know right? SINGING! Go figure. I guess that is why hip hop is NOT rap, because there is actual singing also, not just TALKING/RAPPING.

 

Back to TALENT, I've heard many types of music that I don't like at all, yet I can tell the people doing it are very talented at it. I respect the TALENT, even if I personally don't care for the music.

The example of old verses new BLACK EYED PEAS seems like a good one. I heard their old stuff and thought they had talent. Where did that go???

[wwwjd]

I'm going to commit the sin of taking someone's comment out of context and using it for another purpose. When Lou Reed was asked about the Velvet Underground song "Heroin", he said "it's not for or against it, just about it." I'd say that could easily apply to all music. It doesn't have to celebrate life, it can just comment on it and still be good.

 

 

I understand and respect your point here.

For me personally, my statement was a very personal philosophical one: if you are not doing some good, you are probably doing bad.

 

Watched THE TAMI SHOW recently. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058631/

It was curious to me when and why music went from that 1964 movie concert of happy goody goody music (yeah, there were a few break my heart ones, not many though) to today where you gotta drop F bombs to sell music on iTunes? Talk about cop killing? POP Radio is mostly drinking and getting it on the dance floor. Things HAVE gotten worse, and that is not just old guy speak, it is that THINGS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE.

 

I prefer to lean towards things that make me feel better not worse. Or things that don't ENABLE negativity. Today's world profits out of getting you to eat up the worse things: cash in antidepressants, therapy etc.

 

Talent? Let's see if anyone out there is talented enough to sell you a celebration of life, not just the lowest common denominator of shakin it on the dance flo, wantin mo mo mo

[wwwjd]

one COULD make this song in a DAW cut and pasted, but doesn't mean one is talented.... THIS GUY IS TALENTED. he has some advanced skills to do something cool that many people don't have.
You and I doing it on a DAW does not make us talented since any idiot with a daw could cut and paste the same thing. THIS guy can play this LIVE in one setting on his instrument. You and I and any idiot could not. Talent.

this guy seems TALENTED. some advanced skills to do something cool that many people don't have.
[video=youtube;j7xz1nos-xc]

Though not the greatest bassist I've ever seen, and I am not a fan of the music,
this guys is talented. some advanced skills to do something cool that many people don't have.

this drummer seems VERY talented to me. actually the whole group

[ChipCurtis]

 

Talent? Let's see if anyone out there is talented enough to sell you a celebration of life, not just the lowest common denominator of shakin it on the dance flo, wantin mo mo mo

 

 

For many, the dance floor experience itself is their celebration of life, not necessarily the music that accompanies it. Which leads me to another thought: Perhaps the widespread popularity of dance-based trance music is precisely because it serves a blatant utilitarian purpose. People dancing to music is as old as time itself (tribal), so maybe as a society we're just getting back to primal instincts of what music does for us. Classical was a European cerebral experiment largely promoted by royalty and authorities in the Roman Catholic church as a way to repress sexual instincts/desires. But go outside of Europe during this time and you will still find 'primal' tribal rites based on dances to mostly percussion based 'music' (rain dances, etc.) just like it was millennia before that. So I think we are just evolving (devolving?) back to that.

 

I agree with the Lou Reed analogy: I think for him, writing that tune was a cathartic experience, not a celebration or defilement of anything. He's trying to get you to feel the highs (right after shooting up) and the lows (withdrawal, cold sweats) of the experience, captured in a song.

[alison87]

Would you guys consider live video sample manipulation talented?

 

[video=youtube;koR9rokcL-w]

[Paolo Di Nicolantonio]

i was checking out some synth demos today by 'keybdwizrd', a guy that most anyone would consider quite talented musically. you know what? sometimes it's the people with all the talent that make "pathetic" music.

 

 

I was checking out some music demos today by "Output:Noise", a label that most anyone would consider quite hipster and alternative. You know what? Every time, hipsters / goatie-beard-stroking / modular-knob-tweaking individuals don't have any talent, but still want to charge $5 for their CDs and $12 for their t-shirts to enlighten "regular people" to what "real music" (done with real talent) really is.

 

KeyboardWizard's SYNTH DEMOS (not compositions, not all of them anyway) are free, let us know what a synth sounds like, and they do that very well. This is a synth forum primarily, not a music appreciation club.

 

On the other hand, when I want my awesome, hipster alternative, non-"pathetic" music fix, I think I can start my dish-washer, let it run for a while, record the output of the noise it makes, loop it for 10 minutes, record my 9-year-old daughter practicing her violin, add that, pass through some reverb, and save 5 bucks.

 

Dude - look: nothing wrong with your music, I wish you well with it and I even enjoy zoning out and listening to drone/noise music every now and then. But if you have to be your usual self, being rude and condescending towards other forum members - (even if you try to "veil" it by putting quotes between the adjective "pathetic") and you darn very well know KeyboardWizard is a member of this forum- and you only do it to inflame other people's spirits - then that is totally out of line. BE nicer to people here or I will ban you, last warning.

[Unfed]

very nice, Paolo. itching to abuse your powers as a moderator again? i hardly think that anything i've said or done really warrants a BAN. your post seems to a bit hypocritical as well, i'm sure you know that two wrongs don't make a right.

 

(anyway, please read...)

 

i was going to drop you a PM, but i think i should say this here - you're right. it was uncalled for to single out keybdwizrd in this thread, if only because he's a member of this forum. i could have just as easily used someone like Steve Vai as an example, but i had just watched his synth demo vids before writing that. as for the word pathetic being 'veiled' in quotes, i used quotes because i don't actually think it is. maybe a bit 'safe' and un-imaginative, but certainly not in the same way that wwwjd used the term for other people's music. i was making a point, and i think it was understood as that. either way, i'd be happy to edit/delete any mention of keybdwizrd in this thread, if you'll do the same to the reference in your post (feel free to keep the rest though, obviously - it sure makes you look good).

 

as for output:noise - it's not my site and i have very little to do with it, so you're not exactly hurting my feelings. it's run by a friend, and i'm happy to support what he's doing. i can't say that i agree with charging for the music (i think they should be free downloads), but whatever. however, i think that $12 for a nice quality t-shirt is fair. he and his wife paid thousands of dollars out of pocket to provide a local venue for shows and improv jam sessions - without charging admission. i think whatever he can get back is well deserved.

[Unfed]

 

... doing it on a DAW does not make us talented since any idiot with a daw could cut and paste the same thing.

 

 

yes, we understand what "talent" is. but again, it really doesn't mean much in the end. you aren't really proving your point very well at all. talent doesn't mean a thing if the end product doesn't touch the listener.

 

... and please don't go around thinking that you could create something like Paul's Boutique yourself just because it's all "cut and paste". you just can't. Paolo made the same mistake a while back and got stuck with his foot in his mouth big time saying that Autechre were hacks and that he could make the same stuff himself. it was hilarious, you should've been there.

[Paolo Di Nicolantonio]

 

as for output:noise - it's not my site and i have very little to do with it, so you're not exactly hurting my feelings. it's run by a friend, and i'm happy to support what he's doing. i can't say that i agree with charging for the music (i think they should be free downloads), but whatever. however, i think that $12 for a nice quality t-shirt is fair. he and his wife paid thousands of dollars out of pocket to provide a local venue for shows and improv jam sessions - without charging admission. i think whatever he can get back is well deserved.

 

 

Well, it's your signature. Usually people post things they are directly related to, in their signatures.

 

At any rate, that is the type of music that you deem "worthy", or am I wrong?

 

The real question is - do you think it takes talent to make the Output:Noise music?

[Unfed]

You have the ability of making other people's blood boil, by posting in a very inflammatory way, and you know it.

 

uhh, sorry?

 

So now you retreat? So do you or don't you think that music like KeyboardWizard's is pathetic? Judging from the entire "vibe" of your posting, I'd think there is no question that you do think it's pathetic. At least have the courage to say, "his music sucks", I would prefer that. I don't believe for one minute that's that is not what you meant. You're back-pedaling.

 

no, i'm apologizing (sincerely), because i didn't have to use him as an example. honestly though, i think i used him as an example because most people here would be familiar with him and his skills as a player. and no, i don't necessarily this his music is pathetic or that it sucks. that's why i used the quotes. i do find it a bit underwhelming that "real" or "talented" musicians generally seem to fall back on the same patterns/behaviors (and his music does absolutely nothing for me personally), but that's not the same as a blanket statement that it sucks. either way, it's a general observation on musicians that are considered talented, nothing against him personally.

 

This type of passive-aggressive attitude of yours, I can't stand.

 

well, get over it. what else can i say? i completely understand, but really, don't let your personal feelings influence how you moderate this forum.

 

do you think it takes talent to make the Output:Noise music?

 

no, not necessarily. i do, however, think that it takes a good ear for what works and what doesn't. is that a "talent" in itself? i'm not sure, and i'm honestly not too worried about it. i will say though, that most of those O:N improv sessions included a good number of talented musicians, a lot of them being students of the Eastman School of Music here in Rochester.

[Paolo Di Nicolantonio]

no, not necessarily. i do, however, think that it takes a good ear for what works and what doesn't. is that a "talent" in itself? i'm not sure, and i'm honestly not too worried about it. i will say though, that most of those O:N improv sessions included a good number of talented musicians, a lot of them being students of the Eastman School of Music here in Rochester.

Getting a clear answer from you is impossible. You're one of those types who - when asked the question "Is the sky blue today?" answer with "I don't know. I think it could be gray, but it's not necessarily gray. Certainly it might be blue, but depending on the lunar influx on the celestial bodies it could also be defined as orange. Unless there's a solar explosion, in which case it would be green."

COME ON.

At any rate, I REPEAT IT because perhaps you haven't heard me: stop behaving in an inflammatory way in your posting, or you go - second time, there will not be a third.

[Spleencage]

Depends what your TRUE motivation is, as well as you generosity. Some make music to entertain others, some to only amuse themselves. Some stick within their genre and base their approach to reflect that. Some even consider "learning" about music on a technique-level as a negative. Some use it as a platform to preach their opinions.It means different things to different people. Whats the most relevant? Whose to say?

[wwwjd]

For many, the dance floor experience itself is their celebration of life,

Durn it. I miss spoke again. Please excuse me back peddle... IN MY HEAD, I was pondering lowest common denominator dance music that is being pushed OVER THE RADIO AIRWAVES, not the clubs. I think it is PERFECT for the clubs and have always considered dancing a celebration of life. My previous sentances talked about music on the radio and I was kinda going on about DANCE MUSIC played on top40 radio... doesn't really fit right to me... seldom would I be on a dance floor with a portable radio in my ear DANCING to something played over the radio, I'd let the DJ system bust the tunes out for that. So, 12 year olds listening to pop radio "she had boobies like wow wow wow" "let me give it to ya like boom boom boom" just doesn't seem right to me. DANCE ON!

[Unfed]

So, 12 year olds listening to pop radio "she had boobies like wow wow wow" "let me give it to ya like boom boom boom" just doesn't seem right to me.

 

on this point i would agree with you completely. there's also a current tune where the guy is basically telling a girl to send him nude pictures of herself from her phone. stuff like that seems totally wrong.

[nice keetee]

[liliththekitten]

"But something has definitely changed. There are a lot of people making music today who think not in terms of notes but of phrases and loops. They don't compose so much as graft. And no, I'm not an old man yelling at kids to get out of his yard. It's just a fact. "

Except that people have said similar things about every new musical movement that came down the pike and challenged their pre-concieved notions about what constitutes "real" music. They said it about jazz, they said it about rock 'n' roll, they said it about techno and house and all the dance music that followed, like trance. Stuff like "It's just not music". "it's just noise." It is exactly "old man yelling at kids" speak. Its not confined to old people or white people - though those types are often the most vocal this way - it's confined to closed-minded people and those who are just shocked and confused by the new.

Not necessarily in these terms: "There are a lot of people making music today who think not in terms of notes but of phrases and loops" - as that's hip-hop-specific though jazz, rock, and modern music like Ligeti or Cage challenged what people thought of as melody. Though the "phrases and loops" accusation can be thrown at techno, house, trance, etc. Of course there's also the accusation that synth artists in general don't make real music and they just let the machines do it for them.

You want "graft"? How about Led Zeppelin stealing from blues artists? To some degree Clapton, the Stones, the Clash, Elvis all borrowed or stole from black artists. It doesn't necessarily invalidate Zeppelin et al as arguably they made something new out of it. But the same thing applies to hip-hop artists.

Sexual and gangsta content? Try naughty 50's R&B. Try the Ballad of Frankie and Johnny from like 1900 - its about a prostitute shooting her pimp. Or Cab Calloway singing "Reefer Man" or "Minnie the Moocher" - it's all about drugs.

Still wondering about this "shampoo commercial trance"? When was this?