Members Exocaster Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 This clipKicks ass. There's more gain there then I had expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Well, then, this was a Master Volume amp, was it not? On non-master volume amps, the dirt comes from a combination of preamp and power amp, depending on the circuit. Oh, get buggered, you sod! You know just as well as i do, that inserting a PPIMV into this amp does not turn the Superbass into a master volume amp design (Yes yes - technically it does turn it into a master volume amp... I know, but that is not the point )All you do in this case however, is to eliminate the poweramp distortion from the tonal equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Oh, get buggered, you sod! You know just as well as i do, that inserting a PPIMV into this amp does not turn the Superbass into a master volume amp design (Yes yes - technically it does turn it into a master volume amp... I know, but that is not the point ) But it does have a Master Volume, and you're also clipping the PI, right? Superbasses have a decent amount of preamp gain, but if you ran the MV wide open and used your channel volume to set your volume, you'd hear a different type of dirt and the amp would reach maximum volume at about 6-7 on the volume dial, and would saturate after that. That's poweramp distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Kicks ass. There's more gain there then I had expected. I'll admit that both volumes (i.e. preamp gain) were at ten for this clip - so unless you kick in the power amp, that is the gain it has.But this clip illustrates my point fairly well, i think - without the power amp playing a role (at least only an extremely minor role) you can get quite igh distortion levels even from the least gainy of preamps - now add the speakers that at say, half volume levels (where the power amp still would not distort very much) already would alter their tone (i assume) and you get what might be mistaken for power amp distortion...It is possible, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 But it does have a Master Volume, and you're also clipping the PI, right? Superbasses have a decent amount of preamp gain, but if you ran the MV wide open and used your channel volume to set your volume, you'd hear a different type of dirt and the amp would reach maximum volume at about 6-7 on the volume dial, and would saturate after that. That's poweramp distortion. Hehehe the channel volumes are always gain controls even without the PPIMV inserted And i know what you mean about the compression when you turn it up ... It is there. At insane volume levels.What i am on about is the people who do not turn their 100 W amps up to the point where the power tubes begin distorting/driving but still talk about power amp breakup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 What i am on about is the people who do not turn their 100 W amps up to the point where the power tubes begin distorting/driving but still talk about power amp breakup... Those people are usually full of {censored}. I can tell you one thing - anything more than about 20 watts pushed into clipping through effiecient speakers is enough to get the cops called on you. I'm actually gearing up to build a 6V6 powered Plexi in order to get that sweet Plexi tone at reasonable volumes. I personally love power amp compression, and I don't even give 100 watt amps a second look most of the time for that very reason, and the fact that I don't really like the way that attenuators work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Those people are usually full of {censored}. I can tell you one thing - anything more than about 20 watts pushed into clipping through effiecient speakers is enough to get the cops called on you. That was my main point It seems that we agree after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 That was my main point It seems that we agree after all Of course we do - you seem like a reasonable bloke. I've been preaching lower wattage for years, and it seems to be coming around little by little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members starsnuffer Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 I love power amp compression. I love power amp dynamic differences at different poweramp drive levels. Go buy a plexi or an XTC or a Dr Z or something and play around with it. You can read all you want but until you actually experiment with amps you really won't have a full understanding. Personally, I dislike speaker breakup, but I love poweramp breakup for given tones. (Perhaps I'm lucky though, as my first "real" amp was a plexi superlead I bought from a guy running from the cops for $400 when I was 15) -W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Strato-Rich Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 poweramps don't saturate. Transformers saturate, phase inverters run out of headroom and speakers work hard. That is the key to all this "power tube saturation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Of course we do - you seem like a reasonable bloke. Right back at ya' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Isn't power tube saturation what the delicious overdrive on a Fender Champ is all about? I mean, what else *is* there to overdrive, tube-wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Isn't power tube saturation what the delicious overdrive on a Fender Champ is all about? I mean, what else *is* there to overdrive, tube-wise? Erhemm... if you look further up the thread (and listen) you can find that the preamp section alone of a Marshall Superbass has more than enough gain for most uses. If we assume that the Fender is not too far from the Marshall design (or the other way around, as history has it) it could easily be the preamp that is overdriving in the Fender too. But to be honest i have no idea, i am just throwing around educated guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spoonie g Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Just as a little proof to counter your claim:This clip of a '71 Marshall Superbass is ALL preamp distortion, since it was recorded through a 4x12 at bedroom volume (which in this case means that the actual level was below civilised conversation levels). Presumably we are down to 0.1 W or less here.The only thing modded on this amp was the Master volume... No drives, no nothing. Is that the one that had a post phas inverter master volume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Erhemm... if you look further up the thread (and listen) you can find that the preamp section alone of a Marshall Superbass has more than enough gain for most uses. If we assume that the Fender is not too far from the Marshall design (or the other way around, as history has it) it could easily be the preamp that is overdriving in the Fender too. But to be honest i have no idea, i am just throwing around educated guesses. The Champ is a little bit of a different beast. I believe it only has one preamp stage, and most of the dirt comes from the single output tube having the piss pushed out of it.Such a cool tone, though. Almost as nice as a tweed Deluxe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Is that the one that had a post phas inverter master volume?Yup. At this volume it gets very flubby in the bass, but for some reason it recorded really well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mhr74 Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 My 18W TMB is a perfect example of power tube breakup at its finest. I have a channel with a Master Volume, but when I distort the preamp, it sounds buzzy. When I turn the MV up and back down on the channel volume (gain), it gets the same level of dirt, but sounds completely different. It depends on what you are looking for. High gain sounds don't really benefit from power tube breakup, where lower gain really starts to compress and sound "bigger" once the power tubes reach saturation.Both have their uses, and I have found that a mix of both gives me the best tone out of lower wattage amps. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 The Champ is a little bit of a different beast. I believe it only has one preamp stage, and most of the dirt comes from the single output tube having the piss pushed out of it. Such a cool tone, though. Almost as nice as a tweed Deluxe I guessed wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 The Champ is a little bit of a different beast. I believe it only has one preamp stage, and most of the dirt comes from the single output tube having the piss pushed out of it. Such a cool tone, though. Almost as nice as a tweed Deluxe I guessed wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Erhemm... if you look further up the thread (and listen) you can find that the preamp section alone of a Marshall Superbass has more than enough gain for most uses.If we assume that the Fender is not too far from the Marshall design (or the other way around, as history has it) it could easily be the preamp that is overdriving in the Fender too. But to be honest i have no idea, i am just throwing around educated guesses. Well, the only volume control in a Champ is between halves of the 12ax7, so some preamp overdrive is possible. However, the strength of the signal impinging on the grid of the 6V6 is necessarily greater at higher volumes, and a Champ at 3 is clean, at 5 starts to growl, and 7 gets quite gravelly, and dimed is legendary. Keep in mind that old 5C1 Champions had a *single* gain stage in the preamp, and could also be overdriven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted March 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Well, the only volume control in a Champ is between halves of the 12ax7, so some preamp overdrive is possible. However, the strength of the signal impinging on the grid of the 6V6 is necessarily greater at higher volumes, and a Champ at 3 is clean, at 5 starts to growl, and 7 gets quite gravelly, and dimed is legendary. Keep in mind that old 5C1 Champions had a *single* gain stage in the preamp, and could also be overdriven... I admitted that my educated guess was totally wrong - twice even Too bad we don't (didn't) get those amps over here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIP Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Well, the only volume control in a Champ is between halves of the 12ax7, so some preamp overdrive is possible. However, the strength of the signal impinging on the grid of the 6V6 is necessarily greater at higher volumes, and a Champ at 3 is clean, at 5 starts to growl, and 7 gets quite gravelly, and dimed is legendary. Keep in mind that old 5C1 Champions had a *single* gain stage in the preamp, and could also be overdriven... I just know that a tweed Champ sounds great on 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 Wow, it astonishes me how much the Amp Forum has devolved. What a {censored}ing ridiculous thread, with a ridiculous {censored}ing concept. Of course it's real. Anyone who has ever played a decent amp not looking for "teh metulz" knows it's real. You ever wonder why we make fun of people who play quiet but max the gain? Rule of thumb: lower channel volume, higher master. Why do you think that is? Are you really so daft as to think it's because we like things louder, or because the speaker is being driven? Obviously, speaker working makes it sound BETTER, but have any of you {censored}ing ever played with an attenuator? Seriously, how {censored}ing ridiculous. I spit on you and piss on your shoes. I also fart in your general direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cobrahead1030 Posted March 8, 2007 Members Share Posted March 8, 2007 it depends on the amp...some amps sound good when you drive them that way, others don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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