Screwed on songwriting credits

[New Trail]

Two years ago I was part of an all original band. The other guitarist and I wrote the music to the songs and the girl singer wrote the words. In that order! With "my" songs I had the complete music written the I would give her a tape of it and she would write the words. Then the band would learn the songs. We did some songwriters nights and a couple of gigs. We went into the studio and recorded the songs with guitar, bass, conga and vocals. Then the band broke up, though we are all still friends. The girl singer took the tapes (she had paid for the sessions) and had extra music added, in some cases completely deleting our music. She just stopped by here at work and gave me a copy of her (non-label, independently produced and paid for by her) CD and she has credited all of the songs as being written by her alone. I know for a fact, and I know SHE knows for a fact, that NONE of the songs would have even existed if it hadn't been for our music, even on the ones where our playing ended up not being used. And the other night (before she gave me the CD) I spent 3 hours (at her request) with her talking about how great I was, and how she wanted to write with me again, and she wanted me to be "as involved and I wanted to be" in "her" musical career. She also made a big fuss about wanting me to include words and melodies (which I sometimes had on some of my previous songs, but didn't present to her) on any songs I wrote in the future. Then NO SONGWRITING CREDIT on the CD. Pretty ballsy, huh?!?! Screwed again!........What can I do?

[Chicken Monkey]

What are the chances that there is any money to be made on this no-label, self-released CD? It doesn't sound like a situation in which she'll even recoup, in which case songwriter credits don't mean {censored}.

 

If she starts to make money with "your" songs, get a lawyer. If not, get over it.

 

And don't work with her again. And be sure she knows why. But don't be a dick.

[New Trail]

 

Originally posted by Chicken Monkey What are the chances that there is any money to be made on this no-label, self-released CD? It doesn't sound like a situation in which she'll even recoup, in which case songwriter credits don't mean {censored}. If she starts to make money with "your" songs, get a lawyer. If not, get over it. And don't work with her again. And be sure she knows why. But don't be a dick.

 

 

Thanks for your comments. I definitely won't be working with her again. I don't think her CD will do anything. Its really all about the principle of the thing, and the off chance that some artist will cut one of the songs. I sent her an email yesterday saying that I was puzzled as to why the other guitarist and I weren't credited. She responded by saying that she learned in "Nashville" that songwriting is words and melody, not chords, and that if it was chords she would have to credit anyone who played on the album. My contention is that my "chords" were (at very least) the inspiration for what became "her" songs. My bad, I guess. If this is what friends do to you watch out for your enemies!

[Uma Floresta]

That's totally lame. Basically her contribution is poetry without your music. What she did was illegal. She needs to credit you and the other dude, with "music by dude 1 and dude 2, words by unscrupulous chick." Well, you know, except with your real names. I would never work with her again, that's for sure. Unless you think she's good enough to go big, but if you did work with her again, always on condition of you receiving songwriting credit (and a good share of royalties, obviously).

 

Do you know if she has registered the stuff with the copyright office? If not, I'd register the stuff you wrote and then tell her she's in violation of your copyright unless she reprints the CD packages with your name in the credits.

[amplayer]

 

Originally posted by Chicken Monkey What are the chances that there is any money to be made on this no-label, self-released CD? It doesn't sound like a situation in which she'll even recoup, in which case songwriter credits don't mean {censored}. If she starts to make money with "your" songs, get a lawyer. If not, get over it. And don't work with her again. And be sure she knows why. But don't be a dick.

 

 

+1

[baron85]

I have a question somewhat on this topic...

 

I'm in a fairly generic modern rock group that isn't particularly spectacular or noteworthy. However, me and the other guitarist are actually fairly good, and our "type" of music is not the same as the lead singer, so we've been planning on starting our own group at some point. The lead singer is also the bass player, and our system of writing songs goes like this:

Bass player brings his bass line to us, complete with the melody (sometimes)

Me and other guitarist proceed to completely change his song around until it is actually something good (the bass player isn't particularly good). We end up writing all of the music, he comes up with the lyrics and vocals.

 

With that said, would I have to credit him for a song that I arranged if I took the main hook (which is pretty much the song - think Thunderstruck and you're on the right path) and created something different with different vocals and lyrics. Now, I would credit the other guitarist, as he helped me with this particular song. I'm not sure if it'll ever go anywhere, but the hook that I came up with is extremely catchy and pretty cool, and to be completely honest, I want my music for myself.

 

Is this ethical?

[Uma Floresta]

 

Originally posted by baron85 I have a question somewhat on this topic... I'm in a fairly generic modern rock group that isn't particularly spectacular or noteworthy. However, me and the other guitarist are actually fairly good, and our "type" of music is not the same as the lead singer, so we've been planning on starting our own group at some point. The lead singer is also the bass player, and our system of writing songs goes like this: Bass player brings his bass line to us, complete with the melody (sometimes) Me and other guitarist proceed to completely change his song around until it is actually something good (the bass player isn't particularly good). We end up writing all of the music, he comes up with the lyrics and vocals. With that said, would I have to credit him for a song that I arranged if I took the main hook (which is pretty much the song - think Thunderstruck and you're on the right path) and created something different with different vocals and lyrics. Now, I would credit the other guitarist, as he helped me with this particular song. I'm not sure if it'll ever go anywhere, but the hook that I came up with is extremely catchy and pretty cool, and to be completely honest, I want my music for myself. Is this ethical?

 

 

That's tricky. If you compared the bassist's original song with the one you have now, are there enough similarities for someone to think they were parts of the same song?

[baron85]

I'm pretty sure that I created all of the music, or at least collaborated on it with the other guitarist. The lead singer supplied only the bass notes (which are just the most extremely rudimentary of notes, as he is not accomplished enough on the bass to make anything more than just the "punk" notes (GGGG, CCCC, EEEE, CC, DD) - do you know what I'm talking about? it's hard to explain) and the melody, which I would not use. And I'm not sure if we didn't even change those too.

 

Sorry if I'm confusing. But do you mean the bassist's original song as the parts in which he came up with himself (i.e. the bass line and the melody)?

[Uma Floresta]

 

Originally posted by baron85 I'm pretty sure that I created all of the music, or at least collaborated on it with the other guitarist. The lead singer supplied only the bass notes (which are just the most extremely rudimentary of notes, as he is not accomplished enough on the bass to make anything more than just the "punk" notes (GGGG, CCCC, EEEE, CC, DD) - do you know what I'm talking about? it's hard to explain) and the melody, which I would not use. And I'm not sure if we didn't even change those too. Sorry if I'm confusing. But do you mean the bassist's original song as the parts in which he came up with himself (i.e. the bass line and the melody)?

 

 

Hmm ... as far as I know, the parts of the song that matter as far as determining authorship are the melody and the chord progression (someone correct me if I'm wrong), even though you can't copyright a chord progression. So, I don't know, if his punk bass lines amounted to coming up with a chord progression, I guess he might have some joint authorship, unless the chord progression changed. I'm going off of what I've heard, though, and I'm no expert on the subject.

[Lee Knight]

We all know when someone has helped write a song. Give them credit. It's not the end of the world to share the "wealth". It is, on the other hand, completely {censored}ty to steal someone's contribution.

[Chicken Monkey]

 

Originally posted by Lee Knight We all know when someone has helped write a song. Give them credit. It's not the end of the world to share the "wealth". It is, on the other hand, completely {censored}ty to steal someone's contribution.

 

 

Amen! Why not err on the side of not being a dick? If it makes a lot of money, then there's enough to go around. If it doesn't make a lot of money, why go through the aggravation?

[baron85]

Good points. But to be blunt, I don't think he deserves it. He's a loser with a false sense of accomplishment and I just don't think he's very good. He constantly plays up his role in the band, etc., and I really don't think it would be anything like it is without me, which sounds egotistical on my part, but this is an internet forum, so I suppose I can get away with it. It's irrational, I know, but some people just rub you the wrong way.

 

However, on the flip side of that coin, he did provide the inspiration for the rest of the song, so in some way I am obligated to give him some modicum of credit.

 

It just sticks in my craw.

[Aaron Cheney]

 

Originally posted by baron85 However, on the flip side of that coin, he did provide the inspiration for the rest of the song, so in some way I am obligated to give him some modicum of credit.

 

 

Yes, you are absolutely obligated to give him credit.

 

If this bass player's contribution means so little, stop using his original ideas and find your own. Otherwise, give him credit.

 

A

[bluesway]

you guys have to register everything you do. just fill out short form PA with every idea you have - lyrics, music, whatever and accompany it with a recording. it doesn't matter. if you do it with a band, fill out the forms as a group. to the guy who got hit with the girl, bummer, man. have you told her what she did is illegal? do you know it's illegal? whether it's registered or not, you own rights. if she ever did get royalties for her music, you're entitled. you'd have to do the legal hooplah, but you are entitled. there's a great book called "creative careers in music" that deals with all of this.

[baron85]

Thank you, Aaron, for being slightly condescending, but also thanks to the rest of you for the insightful replies. As to the previous posts, I have enough original ideas that I don't need his help. In fact, most of the music I play in the band with him I don't like. It's "emo" and that's just not my type of music. However, he is the "frontman" because he started the band and owns all of the equipment, so we are obligated to use his original ideas, since it's his band. I'm starting up another band that will be made up of the songs that me and the other guitarist wrote on the side, and I was considering using that song, because it really is mostly my song anyway, for our sets, with different lyrics, etc.

 

I realized that I probably would not have written the song had he not come to me with his song, even though I changed it enough so that it was absolutely nothing like the original. However marginal his contribution was, I figure it at least merits songwriting credit.

[New Trail]

Well, the thieving girl singer emailed me last week asking for a meeting. However, she wanted me to email her my "recollection of events, with the key issues either underlined or in bold" before the meeting. I emailed her back saying that I would agree to a meeting only if the other two members of the band would agree to be there as well (which I knew they would, since I had alreadly talked to them, and they were on my side too). I said that I would be interested in what HER recollections were, as well. I did not list mine in the email. Since then I have not received any emails from her but she DID try to call me, both at work and at home, and I avoided her calls. And last night I heard, from the owner of the club, that she has cancelled her CD release party citing lack of money and a desire to wait until she can "do it right." Hmmmmm . . . . .

[Aaron Cheney]

 

Originally posted by baron85 Thank you, Aaron, for being slightly condescending...

 

 

Didn't mean to be condescending. I was just trying to point out that a song is what it is as the result of every contribution, no matter how small. I've done cowrites where it's just me and one other person trying to get things to fall into place, and then a third person will suggest the tiniest tweak and suddenly the song works. Should that person get a songwriting credit since their contribution was just a little thing right at the end? Of course.

 

I've also done cowrites with another writer, and third person will suggest some things in the middle of the process and not have much to do with the beginning or the end. Does that person get credit? Of course.

 

Every single contribution plays a role in the course a song takes to completion, and every person should get credit.

 

Getting back to the original idea of the thread (and again...not meaning to be condescending), in my experience pro writers share their songs pretty freely. There isn't a lot of paranoia about where an idea came from or who thought it up first. There's not a lot of bickering about the role someone played in writing a given song. Many songs aren't even copyrighted until they are published.

 

I'm talking from my experience as an independant songwriter, not from the standpoint of being in a band, which sounds more like where you guys are coming from. I just know that from what I've seen, the writers that are over-protective and do the most squabbling never seem to get anywhere, and the writers that are the more free and cooperative with their songs and ideas are collecting royalty checks.

 

A

[baron85]

My bad. I just read you the wrong way (it is somewhat difficult to gauge tone of voice on an internet forum).

 

Thanks.

[Cldplytkmn]

my understanding of copyright is that a copyright is established automatically, as soon as it is performed or recorded. registering the copyright is an extra step that is not needed to protect your work. If i go to an open mic and perform a song, someone can't record it later as their own just because i never registered a copyright for my song.

[Aaron Cheney]

 

Originally posted by Cldplytkmn my understanding of copyright is that a copyright is established automatically, as soon as it is performed or recorded. registering the copyright is an extra step that is not needed to protect your work. If i go to an open mic and perform a song, someone can't record it later as their own just because i never registered a copyright for my song.

 

 

Not exactly...

 

Your work is copyrighted the moment it is recorded in some fixed form. This can be as sheet music, a CD, or an mp3 for example. Merely performing a song does not establish a copyright. It must be recorded.

 

Next:

 

Copyrighting your song is one thing....protecting your copyright is another! You CANNOT defend your copyright unless is has been registered with the US Copyright Office.

 

In my earlier post I mentioned that many songs are not copyrighted until they are published. I guess I misspoke. What I meant is that many songs are not registered with the US Copyright Office until they are published. At that point the publishing company is retaining the rights to a given song and will usually apply for the copyright if it has not already been done.

 

A