Was Cliff Burton really that great?

[Digital Jams]

Dude, he died over 20 years ago. I think you can comment on his bass playing abilities without showing disrespect. As far as great bass players go, who would you nominate? I'm just curious as it would give us a starting point. I can think of many great bass players from a wide variety of genres but I don't know if any of them you would agree with.

Stanley Clarke
Jaco
Marcus Miller
Tony Levin
Victor Wooten
Flea
Geddy Lee
Chris Squire
John Ethwistle

These guys I consider the yard stick for all others to be judged. Rock bass players today that I enjoy and respect......

Dude from Canibal Corpse
Dude from Muddvayne
Dude from Tool
Dude from Incubus

Yeah I dont know their names

About the jazz / fusion cats before some n00b has to comment while eating his fruity pebbles........................they could get more brutalzzzz than you would ever want to know

[ravelm3nt]

Stanley Clarke Jaco Marcus Miller Tony Levin Victor Wooten Flea Geddy Lee Chris Squire John Ethwistle These guys I consider the yard stick for all others to be judged. Rock bass players today that I enjoy and respect...... Dude from Canibal Corpse Dude from Muddvayne Dude from Tool Dude from Incubus Yeah I dont know their names About the jazz / fusion cats before some n00b has to comment while eating his fruity pebbles........................they could get more brutalzzzz than you would ever want to know

Are you talking about the current Incubus bassist or Dirk, the guy that was on Science, Make yourself and Morning View? I don't know about the new one but Dirk was a badass, along with all your other picks. And no Myung anywhere?!

Don't forget Les Claypool.

[Digital Jams]

Are you talking about the current Incubus bassist or Dirk, the guy that was on Science, Make yourself and Morning View? I don't know about the new one but Dirk was a badass, along with all your other picks. And no Myung anywhere?! Don't forget Les Claypool.

Must be the old one, was not aware that he left

Les is a monster and I should be flogged for leaving him out. Myung..........I left him out due to the others that I posted have covered his area already

[Digital Jams]

Oh yes, this guy is an absolute monster..................Tripp Warmsley

[YOUTUBE]JLXo3M1uWjg[/YOUTUBE]

and a lighter side, killer version of a classic..............

[Exocaster]

Cliff was a smart, solid player. He knew when to lock in with the drums, when to follow the guitar, had good lines and good use of chord inversions (playing something other than the root in the bass, for you non-theory types...), all in a genre where the bass is usually inaudible or irrelevant.

[GodBlessTexas]

The problem here is that as much as HCAF loves to deny it, we're chock full of Metallica fanboys (understandably so). The problem is that any, ANY, comment perceived as negative to Metallica, particularly during their best years, is like some sort of sin to utter. Saying Burton wasn't one of the greatest bassists somehow implies that Metallica wasn't one of the greatest bands, which leads to :mad: :mad: - it really isn't that hard to grasp. I don't consider Hammet to be one of the greatest guitarists -- look how many people rag on him on a daily basis -- if HE had been the one under that bus, how many people do you think would be making the same arguments that people are about Cliff? Pretty much all of them.

Man, I'm not even sure what your point is any more. You say you're not talking about his technical ability, but you're not talking about what he brought to Metallica. Then what are you talking about?

[Keebz]

I could say otherwise a million billion bazillion times, but it seems like ultimately everyone will continue to try to force the words into my mouth that I'm judging Cliff based on his technical ability. The only time I did that was when presented with the "evidence" of his bass soloing at that live show - all I did was demonstrate that bass soloing was neither unique to Cliff nor best done by Cliff (not that it was necessarily best done by Sheehan, either - hell I don't even know if I've ever heard a Mr. Big song). If I was going by technical ability, this would be a pointless thread. A guy like Jaco Pastorious could play circles around pretty much every bassist before or since; I don't judge a bassist on how fast he can play or how often he throws in some kind of tapping run or whatever. Now everyone keeps arguing that he was the soul of the band, that he was responsible for all of Metallica's greatness, like some kind of presence looming over the band that magically caused Hetfield and Ulrich (who actually wrote those songs, yes they did :poke:) to write good material, as if they'd somehow be writing pop rock without him or something. Hetfield and Ulrich pretty much invented trash metal with songs that they wrote before Burton even joined the band. Obviously he was a major contributor on Ride the Lightning (though still less than Hetfield or Ulrich) but he only contributed to three songs on "Master" and only one (posthumously) on "Justice." Now maybe like I said he was guiding Metallica's steps like a strange puppeteer - or maybe, just maybe, he wasn't a major contributor, rather he was a great friend of the band, a driving force behind some of their music but not most, a good solid bassist but not a great, et cetera. The thing is that old Metallica was great. They were the essence of thrash, they were heavy and melodic and thrashy and progressive and complex and accessible all at the same time possibly like no other band has ever been. And Burton was around during that time, and was certainly no slouch of a bassist, especially at the time. So, you have an above-average bassist in a WAAAAAY above-average band, and then that bassist dies in a tragic accident at a young age. With his death Burton became like a never-aging snapshot of old Metallica - and by virtue of this he has been elevated to the status of bass god. Basically, the train of logic goes, Old Metallica was great + Burton was in Old Metallica + Burton played "lead bass" occasionally and had great stage presence = Burton was great. Just my cynical opinion, maybe. But I think that it's got validity. And a few others in this thread have stated this as well. The problem here is that as much as HCAF loves to deny it, we're chock full of Metallica fanboys (understandably so). The problem is that any, ANY, comment perceived as negative to Metallica, particularly during their best years, is like some sort of sin to utter. Saying Burton wasn't one of the greatest bassists somehow implies that Metallica wasn't one of the greatest bands, which leads to :mad: :mad: - it really isn't that hard to grasp. I don't consider Hammet to be one of the greatest guitarists -- look how many people rag on him on a daily basis -- if HE had been the one under that bus, how many people do you think would be making the same arguments that people are about Cliff? Pretty much all of them.

Now your just

[thinkpad20]

Man, I'm not even sure what your point is any more. You say you're not talking about his technical ability, but you're not talking about what he brought to Metallica. Then what are you talking about?

OK, I'll try to be as clear as possible. If it seems I start to ramble I can't help it; I just tend to be verbose when trying to prove a point. Anyway:

The guys Digital Jams mentioned (that I know), John Paul Jones, Geezer Butler, Les Claypool, Chris Richards, Hugh Stephen James Mingay, several others - these I would consider great bassists because they accomplish/accomplished great things on their instruments. And it's not really much about their technical ability (Mingay, a.k.a. Skoll, wrote some of the best basslines ever in Ulver and Ved Buens Ende while hardly playing a single 16th note). Great bassists make their sound, their notes, their lines essential; you feel like the music is incomplete or worse if not for them - and maybe that's how some feel about Cliff, but that's not how I hear it. In my opinion, Cliff could shred, he wrote some decent lines - some very good lines, in fact - and he held the pocket. All of these things make him a good bassist. But very few things he did, on recordings, were essential to Metallica being Metallica. If you took out his basslines, sure Orion and a few others would be changed, but mostly it would sound the same.

Being a great ______ist has to do with what you do on your instrument. You can be a pretty poor player, or even not play at all, but write great songs - then you're a great songwriter, or great composer. For example think of all of the classical composers who wrote for instruments they did not play; was Bach a great cellist? No, but he did a hell of a lot to advance cello music. Or you could be a great producer, and help other bands make great music without writing a single note, but that doesn't make you a great bassist, drummer, guitarist, vocalist, or anything. So even IF Cliff was a principle figure in achieving the songwriting that Metallica did, it wouldn't change my opinion of him (much) as a BASSIST. So Cliffs contributions to Metallica as a band, though I think they may be overstated by many (including Metallica themselves, for reasons easy enough to see), are not what I'm talking about. Those might make him "great" in a number of ways, depending on how you see things. But they doesn't make him a great bassist.

I don't know how I can be any more clear than that. Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion and that's mine.

[Mavesicles]

but are too much into showing off how many notes they can play in one song, than actually writing a meaningful tune!

 

 

Actually, there are tons of songs by Dream Theater that are not just about getting as many notes in a song as possible. And there's a lot of meaningful Dream Theater tunes as well.

[Keebz]

OK, I'll try to be as clear as possible. If it seems I start to ramble I can't help it; I just tend to be verbose when trying to prove a point. Anyway: The guys Digital Jams mentioned (that I know), John Paul Jones, Geezer Butler, Les Claypool, Chris Richards, Hugh Stephen James Mingay, several others - these I would consider great bassists because they accomplish/accomplished great things on their instruments. And it's not really much about their technical ability (Mingay, a.k.a. Skoll, wrote some of the best basslines ever in Ulver and Ved Buens Ende while hardly playing a single 16th note). Great bassists make their sound, their notes, their lines essential; you feel like the music is incomplete or worse if not for them - and maybe that's how some feel about Cliff, but that's not how I hear it. In my opinion, Cliff could shred, he wrote some decent lines - some very good lines, in fact - and he held the pocket. All of these things make him a good bassist. But very few things he did, on recordings, were essential to Metallica being Metallica. If you took out his basslines, sure Orion and a few others would be changed, but mostly it would sound the same. Being a great ______ist has to do with what you do on your instrument. You can be a pretty poor player, or even not play at all, but write great songs - then you're a great songwriter, or great composer. For example think of all of the classical composers who wrote for instruments they did not play; was Bach a great cellist? No, but he did a hell of a lot to advance cello music. Or you could be a great producer, and help other bands make great music without writing a single note, but that doesn't make you a great bassist, drummer, guitarist, vocalist, or anything. So even IF Cliff was a principle figure in achieving the songwriting that Metallica did, it wouldn't change my opinion of him (much) as a BASSIST. So Cliffs contributions to Metallica as a band, though I think they may be overstated by many (including Metallica themselves, for reasons easy enough to see), are not what I'm talking about. Those might make him "great" in a number of ways, depending on how you see things. But they doesn't make him a great bassist. I don't know how I can be any more clear than that. Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion and that's mine.

"To be great is to be misunderstood" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Which apparently you do!

[TheFigurehead]

For my money, no one will ever outdo James Jamerson for greatest bassist to ever walk the earth. In terms of taste and feel, regardless of technical ability, he cannot be beat. I'm sure even Cliff would agree.

 

Aston Barrett, Paul McCartney, Carol Kaye, Dee Murray, John Paul Jones, John Entwistle, and about 1,000 more are on my list before most of the jazz / fusion players (Jaco being the exception, for his work with Joni Mitchell)...

 

but as far as metal goes, Burton is the real deal.

[thinkpad20]

"To be great is to be misunderstood" - Ralph Waldo Emerson Which apparently you do!

In your opinion. Which is I guess all this comes down to in the end. But either way, thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed and well-thought-out response to my points, really. :poke:

Up until now it seems there are a few people who are actually discussing what I'm bringing up, whether in agreement or disagreement. The rest are just been parroting everyone else, following the general consensus - probably, that's how they really feel, but it's just so much easier to say what everyone else is saying because you can feel comfortable nobody's going to attack you. If I had made a thread saying "Cliff Burton was an awesome bassist" I probably would have just gotten a lot of "hell yeah"s and pats on the back. Instead I said something that contradicted the mainstream view, and I get responses like "put down the crack pipe." But disagreements don't have to be hostile. Arguments don't have to be derogatory. Unfortunately the concept of talking about things instead of forcing your point of view down the throat of anyone who says differently seems to be lost on many here.

No really, I love you guys. I just wish that we could have more intelligent discussions rather than flame wars. Maybe it's too much to ask of a place like this. I guess this is just what I should expect for trying to counter any of the generally held notions on HCAF... regardless of how much time I put into trying to support my statements, to actually explain WHY I think the way I do.

Everyone thinks that Cliff Burton was great. So he must be great. Ya wohl, mein Forum!

[mhr74]

James also mentioned this "We never would have written guitar harmonies or instrumentals or songs with very intricate melodies and orchestrations without Cliff. We wouldn't be where we are today."

 

 

that's a big deal fo sho

[.homewrecker.]

In your opinion. Which is I guess all this comes down to in the end. But either way, thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed and well-thought-out response to my points, really. :poke: Up until now it seems there are a few people who are actually discussing what I'm bringing up, whether in agreement or disagreement. The rest are just been parroting everyone else, following the general consensus - probably, that's how they really feel, but it's just so much easier to say what everyone else is saying because you can feel comfortable nobody's going to attack you. If I had made a thread saying "Cliff Burton was an awesome bassist" I probably would have just gotten a lot of "hell yeah"s and pats on the back. Instead I said something that contradicted the mainstream view, and I get responses like "put down the crack pipe." But disagreements don't have to be hostile. Arguments don't have to be derogatory. Unfortunately the concept of talking about things instead of forcing your point of view down the throat of anyone who says differently seems to be lost on many here. No really, I love you guys. I just wish that we could have more intelligent discussions rather than flame wars. Maybe it's too much to ask of a place like this. I guess this is just what I should expect for trying to counter any of the generally held notions on HCAF... regardless of how much time I put into trying to support my statements, to actually explain WHY I think the way I do. Everyone thinks that Cliff Burton was great. So he must be great. Ya wohl, mein Forum!

 

Dude, seriously.

 

Get your meldo-tech-death-metal-core head out of your ass, pop in Master of Puppets, Ride the Lightning or Kill 'em All into your CD player, turn it up as loud as your mom will let you and rock the {censored} out, then you'll understand.

 

There's nothing to discuss, he either is awesome or he isn't, you clearly don't get it so move along.

[The Realm]

Cliff Burton brought a lot of the harmony/progressive/classical aspect to Metallica. That aspect died with Cliff, and now we have the Black Album, the Loads and St. Anger.

 

 

Cliff was actually murdered by Lars who feared Cliff was going to get in the way of his commercial dreams.

[Keebz]

I just wish that we could have more intelligent discussions

And you go and start threads like this??
Did you ever realize that "god" spelled backwards is "dog"?

[Uncle_Milton]

Cliff was actually murdered by Lars who feared Cliff was going to get in the way of his commercial dreams.

[thinkpad20]

And you go and start threads like this?? Did you ever realize that "god" spelled backwards is "dog"?

That thread was intended to be comedic, this wasn't. I think the difference is clear. Besides, that was a quote from a movie, which only one person realized... everyone else took it off into lala land. What could I do about that?

Seems no matter how hard I try to make my statements clear, reasoned, and free from vitriol, people only want to hear what they already think. How very sad.

[.homewrecker.]

Seems no matter how hard I try to make my statements clear, reasoned, and free from vitriol, people only want to hear what they already think. How very sad.

They need an irony smiley.

[Sex Panther]

I like CB, but like anyone else, his untimely death makes him that much more popular.

For instance...if Jimi Hendrix was still alive, and Eddie Van Halen would have died after Fair Warning came out, EVH would be #1 on every single guitar list.

[boostershyster]

master of puppets was metallica's last good record... cliff burton was the best thing to happen to them, when he died so did metallica. jason played on mop not cliff. cliff should be respected as a classical musician and a great bass player, 'ride the lightning' was his greatest moment... newsted was smart enough to bail on metallica. that to me speaks volumes about them.

 

i respect newsted more then hetfield, lars or hammet. those guys ruined their own legacy. bunch of douche bags.

[Mavesicles]

master of puppets was metallica's last good record... .

 

 

Are you kidding me?! You don't like AJFA?! AJFA smokes MOP, IMO.

[thinkpad20]

Are you kidding me?! You don't like AJFA?! AJFA smokes MOP, IMO.

 

 

Gotta agree with Mave on this one. Maybe I wouldn't say it smokes it, but AJFA has been my favorite Metallica for a long time.

[Mavesicles]

Gotta agree with Mave on this one

 

I'm going to have to sig this.

[thinkpad20]

I'm going to have to sig this.

damn :cop: