Was Cliff Burton really that great?

[Mavesicles]

damn :cop:

:cop::cop:

[Vittra1]

OK, I'll try to be as clear as possible. If it seems I start to ramble I can't help it; I just tend to be verbose when trying to prove a point. Anyway: The guys Digital Jams mentioned (that I know), John Paul Jones, Geezer Butler, Les Claypool, Chris Richards, Hugh Stephen James Mingay, several others - these I would consider great bassists because they accomplish/accomplished great things on their instruments. And it's not really much about their technical ability (Mingay, a.k.a. Skoll, wrote some of the best basslines ever in Ulver and Ved Buens Ende while hardly playing a single 16th note). Great bassists make their sound, their notes, their lines essential; you feel like the music is incomplete or worse if not for them - and maybe that's how some feel about Cliff, but that's not how I hear it. In my opinion, Cliff could shred, he wrote some decent lines - some very good lines, in fact - and he held the pocket. All of these things make him a good bassist. But very few things he did, on recordings, were essential to Metallica being Metallica. If you took out his basslines, sure Orion and a few others would be changed, but mostly it would sound the same. Being a great ______ist has to do with what you do on your instrument. You can be a pretty poor player, or even not play at all, but write great songs - then you're a great songwriter, or great composer. For example think of all of the classical composers who wrote for instruments they did not play; was Bach a great cellist? No, but he did a hell of a lot to advance cello music. Or you could be a great producer, and help other bands make great music without writing a single note, but that doesn't make you a great bassist, drummer, guitarist, vocalist, or anything. So even IF Cliff was a principle figure in achieving the songwriting that Metallica did, it wouldn't change my opinion of him (much) as a BASSIST. So Cliffs contributions to Metallica as a band, though I think they may be overstated by many (including Metallica themselves, for reasons easy enough to see), are not what I'm talking about. Those might make him "great" in a number of ways, depending on how you see things. But they doesn't make him a great bassist. I don't know how I can be any more clear than that. Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion and that's mine.

Don't know man

To me, being a good songwriter for bass guitar would actually make you a good bass guitar player. It means you know your instrument inside and out, making you lightyears beyond the average hacks out there. I could care less if Sheehan could out play Burton in a bass-off, they're different kind of 'greats'.

Great bassists make their sound, their notes, their lines essential; you feel like the music is incomplete or worse if not for them - and maybe that's how some feel about Cliff,

I feel Cliff was this way for Metallica. Put Jason newsted on bass during KEA, Ride the Lightning and Master of puppets, and you'd have an abortion of down-picking rhythm guitar-following bass lines.

All the kids in guitar stores that can mimic Malmsteen's technique don't mean {censored} if they can't write.

[Ultrahighgain]

Dude, seriously. Get your meldo-tech-death-metal-core head out of your ass, pop in Master of Puppets, Ride the Lightning or Kill 'em All into your CD player, turn it up as loud as your mom will let you and rock the {censored} out, then you'll understand. There's nothing to discuss, he either is awesome or he isn't, you clearly don't get it so move along.

 

 

thinkpad20's problem is the he thinks Cliffs only contribution to Metallica were those songs for which he is directly credited for on the album sleeves.

[thinkpad20]

 

thinkpad20's problem is the he thinks Cliffs only contribution to Metallica were those songs for which he is directly credited for on the album sleeves.

 

 

I never said that was his only contribution. But it means something. I'm sure he had an impact on Hetfield and Ulrich, but the degree is quite debatable; ultimately who knows. It's pretty undeniable that Hetfield and Ulrich were the driving force of Metallica, always have been, with or without Cliff. If you have evidence to the contrary (beyond generalizations like "he was the soul of the band" et cetera) feel free to put it out there.

 

And anyway if you read what I wrote than you'd see that I make a distinction between being a great bassist and being a great songwriter. So even if he was a great songwriter (which I don't consider him to be; IMO a more realistic way to put it would be that he influenced great songwriters, namely Hetfield and Ulrich) that wouldn't make him a great bassist, by MY criteria. And I can't seem to stress that last phrase enough.

[jlb32]

newsted was smart enough to bail on metallica. that to me speaks volumes about them. i respect newsted more then hetfield, lars or hammet.

Is that why Jason tried to crawl his way back into Metallica several months after he quit?

I liked Jason and still do but he made the decision to leave. He was given many chances to talk to the guys and change his mind. He didn't until several months later but they had moved on and it was to late. Think what you want but he regrets it to this day.

[thinkpad20]

Is that why Jason tried to crawl his way back into Metallica several months after he quit? I liked Jason and still do but he made the decision to leave. He was given many chances to talk to the guys and change his mind. He didn't until several months later but they had moved on and it was to late. Think what you want but he regrets it to this day.

I didn't hear anything of this. From the interviews in Some Kind of Monster, Newsted seemed pretty comfortable with leaving Metallica... I think he said something like they were a bunch of pussies for hiring the group therapist.

Not calling you out as a liar, but I'm just saying I'd never heard of that.

[Vittra1]

I never said that was his only contribution. But it means something. I'm sure he had an impact on Hetfield and Ulrich, but the degree is quite debatable; ultimately who knows. It's pretty undeniable that Hetfield and Ulrich were the driving force of Metallica, always have been, with or without Cliff. If you have evidence to the contrary (beyond generalizations like "he was the soul of the band" et cetera) feel free to put it out there. And anyway if you read what I wrote than you'd see that I make a distinction between being a great bassist and being a great songwriter. So even if he was a great songwriter (which I don't consider him to be; IMO a more realistic way to put it would be that he influenced great songwriters, namely Hetfield and Ulrich) that wouldn't make him a great bassist, by MY criteria. And I can't seem to stress that last phrase enough.

 

 

 

What's really the point then dude? You made the distinction between a great bassist and a great songwriter... Would you think Jeff Loomis is a great guitarist if all of his songs were absolutely terrible, but he could shred on the side? Being a good songwriter doesn't necessarily mean you're a hack of a player. Cliff was great on both sides, IMO.

[jlb32]

I didn't hear anything of this. From the interviews in Some Kind of Monster, Newsted seemed pretty comfortable with leaving Metallica... I think he said something like they were a bunch of pussies for hiring the group therapist. Not calling you out as a liar, but I'm just saying I'd never heard of that.

Yeah, Jason thought the therapist was a bad idea and wasn't happy with Hetfield when he quit but he did try to come back.

I don't remember the exact time line but it was well before Rob was hired. The guys had just moved on after giving him several chances to come back early after he had quit.

[beforetone]

master of puppets was metallica's last good record... cliff burton was the best thing to happen to them, when he died so did metallica. jason played on mop not cliff. cliff should be respected as a classical musician and a great bass player, 'ride the lightning' was his greatest moment... newsted was smart enough to bail on metallica. that to me speaks volumes about them. i respect newsted more then hetfield, lars or hammet. those guys ruined their own legacy. bunch of douche bags.

 

I call B.S. on your statement that Jason played on mop not Cliff. I was there and auditioned for the part and had to purchase a mop cassette to learn the song. I flubbered my way through about 60 seconds of the song and then NEXT!!!! In a depreseed atmosphere my bass playing seemed to put a smile on Lars face. Like I said, cassette remember those? My singer got me the phone call to audition and I borrowed my bass players bass. Plugged into Cliffs rack one year and 60 seconds later I forgot I was even there and never looked back started racing cars. Everytime I hear a solo from Metalica it feels like fingernails rubbing on a chalkboard. I was not a fan of there music, just looking for a paycheck/gig.

[beforetone]

He was never a technical player. If you hear any of his bass tracks, they are actually pretty sloppy by todays standards. But his genious was more in composition and harmony. Similar to what makes Lars an valuable memeber of metallica.

This might be why Lars was smiling and my audition went 60 seconds. (see my above post/story) I have not read all the post on this topic. disclaimer!!!!

[thinkpad20]

I call B.S. on your statement that Jason played on mop not Cliff. I was there and auditioned for the part and had to purchase a mop cassette to learn the song. I flubbered my way through about 60 seconds of the song and then NEXT!!!! In a depreseed atmosphere my bass playing seemed to put a smile on Lars face. Like I said, cassette remember those? My singer got me the phone call to audition and I borrowed my bass players bass. Plugged into Cliffs rack one year and 60 seconds later I forgot I was even there and never looked back started racing cars. Everytime I hear a solo from Metalica it feels like fingernails rubbing on a chalkboard. I was not a fan of there music, just looking for a paycheck/gig.

 

 

wtf

[shredbadtone]

I only listen to Cliff era Metallica. I just pretend the other stuff doesn't exist.

[JAFH]

Cliff was the soul of Metallica. When he died so did they, as evidenced by the fact that the last album he had any fingerprint on (AFJA) was the last album they put out that wasn't becoming everything they loathed in music at the beginning. They became what they fought against when Cliff died, period.

This is a really good point.
I don't think he was all that special a bassist, but if her were a ballplayer, they would talk about his "intangibles" and he would be called a "locker room guy".

So, maybe Cliff is to Metallica what Charles Oakley was to the '93 Knicks.

Or maybe not.

[Uncle_Milton]

welcome back thread

[TheAmazingBlob]

I call B.S. on your statement that Jason played on mop not Cliff. I was there and auditioned for the part and had to purchase a mop cassette to learn the song. I flubbered my way through about 60 seconds of the song and then NEXT!!!! In a depreseed atmosphere my bass playing seemed to put a smile on Lars face. Like I said, cassette remember those? My singer got me the phone call to audition and I borrowed my bass players bass. Plugged into Cliffs rack one year and 60 seconds later I forgot I was even there and never looked back started racing cars. Everytime I hear a solo from Metalica it feels like fingernails rubbing on a chalkboard. I was not a fan of there music, just looking for a paycheck/gig.

Seriously... wtf

[Mavesicles]

I call B.S. on your statement that Jason played on mop not Cliff. I was there and auditioned for the part and had to purchase a mop cassette to learn the song. I flubbered my way through about 60 seconds of the song and then NEXT!!!! In a depreseed atmosphere my bass playing seemed to put a smile on Lars face. Like I said, cassette remember those? My singer got me the phone call to audition and I borrowed my bass players bass. Plugged into Cliffs rack one year and 60 seconds later I forgot I was even there and never looked back started racing cars. Everytime I hear a solo from Metalica it feels like fingernails rubbing on a chalkboard. I was not a fan of there music, just looking for a paycheck/gig.

Dreams are nice, aren't they...?

[thinkpad20]

Dreams are nice, aren't they...?

[msormune]

The way I see this thread, some people here think Cliff was Jesus reincarnated and died (again) for our sins, but his devoted followers (other members of Metallica) could not stay true to their master after his death and started to worship the Goat thus producing Black Album (See the connection? Black? As in Satan's color?).

Then again maybe Cliff was just a regular bass playing dude, who has been glorified just like all the other good players who died untimely.

Only time will tell. I am waiting for the Armageddon to settle this once and for all, and we'll see if he really is Jesus.

[Mavesicles]

thinkpad

[Polaris20]

Was old Metallica really that great? And how much of it was due to him? There are so many instances where someone's untimely death makes people put them on a pedestal. It's not always deserved, but it's the nature of the beast. It only bugs me when people deify these people.

 

 

Like Cobain? No one would give to squirts about that {censored} stain if he were still alive, IMO. He became a martyr when he died.

[thinkpad20]

Like Cobain? No one would give to squirts about that {censored} stain if he were still alive, IMO. He became a martyr when he died.

 

 

Better watch what you say around here mang

[Polaris20]

Better watch what you say around here mang

Sorry, just not a fan of him, and get really tired of hearing how great he was. Anyway, just noticed this was a necro-bump from a weirdo who thinks he auditioned for Metallica, so......

[beforetone]

Sorry if I offended anyone. Later....

[thinkpad20]

Sorry, just not a fan of him, and get really tired of hearing how great he was. Anyway, just noticed this was a necro-bump from a weirdo who thinks he auditioned for Metallica, so......

No I'm not a fan either; but another thread on Cobain (which was actually intended as a parody thread of this one, lol) turned into a big {censored}fest

[M1K3999]

Like Cobain? No one would give to squirts about that {censored} stain if he were still alive, IMO. He became a martyr when he died.

 

 

Dude, youre retarded. Cliff was a {censored}ing baller at bass. He created some of the most badass songs and is looked at as an icon now. Thats stupid to say he became a martyr when he passed.