Songwriting - Structurally Speaking

[Johnny_1Nut]

How do you all approach the process? I don't have a problem coming up with catchy things, I think anyways...I'll post some stuff up sometime...

 

Anyhow, where I start shooting myself in the foot is trying to give it structure. That's where things start to fall apart. I'll get a good verse/chorus started, and try putting it to music, which is harder for me than writing some cool music and trying to get lyrics to fit. In some cases.

 

I'm really new at this and was just wondering what some of you all do to 'meld' the 2 together and let them gel.

 

TGIF!

[Stackabones]

Most songs will typically fall into the verse-chorus structure (which seems like the default model these days for many, many songwriters), but I prefer 32-bar song form, or AABA (which was the default model for many, many songwriters in the Great American Songbook days). There is also AAA, which I haven't used much ... but it's a great alternative when you can't come up with a B section in AABA.

 

I used to try to shoehorn all my songs into the verse-chorus model and ended up ruining them or just running the lyric aground. Now I've got a couple of different forms to mix and match and alter when needed.

 

Both have their uses and it really depends on the lyric and how the melody moves through that lyric.

[blue2blue]

I go where the song leads.

 

I know that's not a helpful answer, especially, but it's truly how I approach it.

 

But traditional pop structures are deeply ingrained in the way my brain works, musically. It wasn't always that way -- when I first started writing songs, they'd start in one spot (and key) and meander around through all kinds of words and music and not-necessarily repeating chord changes and end up way off somewhere else. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it doesn't always make for the best integrated, coherent and easily aborbable work.

[Lee Knight]

 

...where I start shooting myself in the foot is trying to give it structure. That's where things start to fall apart. I'll get a good verse/chorus started, and try putting it to music, which is harder for me than writing some cool music and trying to get lyrics to fit.

 

 

Your comment above "and try putting it to music, which is harder for me" almost sounds like you're confusing music structure with melody and harmony. Structure refers to music form. In other words, what order the verses and choruses come in, how many, will there be a solo? A break? A pre chorus build?

 

AABA ABAB ABABCA AAA

 

These are all forms or song structures. If you want to figure out what structure or form to utilize in your current composition, you need to study other songs in your genre. The best and most fun way is to analyze and write it down. Just spin the CD and count bars. And keep you finger near the pause button. You might end up with something like this...

 

Into - 4 bars - just picked guitar used in chorus

Verse1 - 8 bars

pre chorus - 4 bars - drums go straight 4 on snare like Motown

Chorus - 8 bars - Back to 2 and 4 snare but modulated up a step

Tag - just like intro but with bass and drums. Rest of chorus instruments drop out

Verse 2 - 8 bars - adds vocal pad oohs

etc etc.

 

Do this a few times to your favorite artists and you'll start to see the basic techniques used with form. Form (structure) is a great way to get a handle on your stuff. It breaks it into chunks and allows you to more easily swap order and maximize the impact of the sections you've written into a single and focused whole. A kick ass tune.

 

See the Wiki too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure_(popular_music)

[Stackabones]

See the Wiki too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure_(popular_music)

 

Fixed.

[fenderbender66]

 

Your comment above "and try putting it to music, which is harder for me" almost sounds like you're confusing music structure with melody and harmony. Structure refers to music form. In other words, what order the verses and choruses come in, how many, will there be a solo? A break? A pre chorus build? AABA ABAB ABABCA AAA These are all forms or song structures. If you want to figure out what structure or form to utilize in your current composition, you need to study other songs in your genre. The best and most fun way is to analyze and write it down. Just spin the CD and count bars. And keep you finger near the pause button. You might end up with something like this... Into - 4 bars - just picked guitar used in chorus Verse1 - 8 bars pre chorus - 4 bars - drums go straight 4 on snare like Motown Chorus - 8 bars - Back to 2 and 4 snare but modulated up a step Tag - just like intro but with bass and drums. Rest of chorus instruments drop out Verse 2 - 8 bars - adds vocal pad oohs etc etc. Do this a few times to your favorite artists and you'll start to see the basic techniques used with form. Form (structure) is a great way to get a handle on your stuff. It breaks it into chunks and allows you to more easily swap order and maximize the impact of the sections you've written into a single and focused whole. A kick ass tune. See the Wiki too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure_(popular_music )

 

 

pretty much what he said.

 

Interestingly, I recently wrote a song without a chorus until the very end, and I think it really works (at least I like it). I had no intention of structuring that way when I started out. Just sort of happened. I have a little solo guitar part that kind of substitutes for where traditionally a chorus would come in. The chorus at the end really feels like a release of all the tension that's been built.

[popthree]

i wrote one with 1 verse 1 chorus :-) it really worked for that particular song.

 

100% of the time i put the music before the words.... i have never written structured lyrics and then later put them to music, verse/chorus/verse/chorus...

 

i have however, written prose.... unstructured poetry..whatever, then later mined that output and placed parts of it into the lyrics of a song i'm building.

 

to me the music is the foundation of the song.. build it first, get the structure 'right' ...where it feels right, you know ? .. the words will follow suit.

[Elias Graves]

I'm the exact opposite. my songs focus on lyrics. I'm a word guy. Music bad to me. I start out either with a single catchy line or an idea for a song I want to write. I then write it out completely in prose. No lines, no rhyme, no rythm. After I see where my song is headed, I start breaking down how the progression needs to go, which will then suggest the form I need to use. There are usually some prose lines in my writeup that that naturally fall into a meter, which I then use to start hammering it into shape.

 

It's a bizarre process, I know, but it works for me. It took me a while to develop that way of working.

 

I think everybody has to develop their own methods. None of them are more or less right; they are just uniquely yours. You will likely have to experiment around with different techniques to find what suits you. Music first, lyrics first. All in one shot, analyze and endlessly rewrite, etc.

 

A really good exercise I once used was to take existing song structures from my favorites and write new lyrics for them. It really helped me to develop a feel for structure.

 

EG

[LeonardScaper]

AABA ABAB ABABCA AAA

 

Structure???

 

You guys structure your songs?

 

Hmmmm.....that's probably something I should look into.

[Elias Graves]

Structure??? You guys structure your songs? Hmmmm.....that's probably something I should look into.

 

Good one. But, hey, some songs call for rigid structure, others not so much.

 

It seems as though some of our discussions revolving around experimentation drew some conclusions along the lines of "experimentation works if you know what the rules are, why you are breaking them and how to break them wisely."

 

EG

[tbry]

I like to do that as well Elias...just write out a 2-3 page short story of an event. Do it from beginning to end in the order it happened. No rhymes just the details of the story. After I have completed the story I go back to the beginning and find the most interesting detail to start the song. From there I continue in sequence looking for the best details to write the rhymes and in order to an even shorter story. (the song)

 

It helps me keep the story in order. If I do this at least it is coherent enough.

 

I used the following example a while back on this board for someone that asked the same kind of question.

 

I walked up to the lunch counter,and saw the waitress wearing a short skirt and a pony tail that swished from side to side while she wiped down the counter. An old man wearing a dirty shirt smoking a non filter and having his morning coffee flirted with the her as she passed by. I could see she liked to tease and gave him a little playful nod and smirk. The old diner's floor was worn in a path leading to the red clored stools where two seats were open for me to chose from. The smell of bacon floated through the joint like a heart attack on an episode of ER. I sat and down and I touched the sticky counter top where she had just finished cleaning. The old smoker asked me to pass the cream and he coughed when I slid it over to him.

 

I did this on the spot while posting and came up with the 1st verse.

 

She was wearing a short skirt

Her pony tail swished from side to side

An old man with a dirty shirt

Flirted with her and told her lies

 

If I had written out 2-3 pages then I could have finished this...maybe I should:)

 

 

 

 

I'm the exact opposite. my songs focus on lyrics. I'm a word guy. Music bad to me. I start out either with a single catchy line or an idea for a song I want to write. I then write it out completely in prose. No lines, no rhyme, no rythm. After I see where my song is headed, I start breaking down how the progression needs to go, which will then suggest the form I need to use. There are usually some prose lines in my writeup that that naturally fall into a meter, which I then use to start hammering it into shape. It's a bizarre process, I know, but it works for me. It took me a while to develop that way of working. I think everybody has to develop their own methods. None of them are more or less right; they are just uniquely yours. You will likely have to experiment around with different techniques to find what suits you. Music first, lyrics first. All in one shot, analyze and endlessly rewrite, etc. A really good exercise I once used was to take existing song structures from my favorites and write new lyrics for them. It really helped me to develop a feel for structure. EG

 

[Elias Graves]

So I guess I'm not alone.

 

The other aspect of that technique hat helps me is allowing me to analyze the story progression. It helps me determine what ground I need to cover in each verse and where the breaks need to fall. When you only have a couple hundred words to make a point, you must be selective in deciding what is essential to the story and what is fluff.

 

EG

[LeonardScaper]

 

to me the music is the foundation of the song.. build it first, get the structure 'right' ...where it feels right, you know ? .. the words will follow suit.

 

 

We'll see........

 

I'll post this tune in a while on a different thread.

[blue2blue]

 

I like to do that as well Elias...just write out a 2-3 page short story of an event. Do it from beginning to end in the order it happened. No rhymes just the details of the story. After I have completed the story I go back to the beginning and find the most interesting detail to start the song. From there I continue in sequence looking for the best details to write the rhymes and in order to an even shorter story. (the song) It helps me keep the story in order. If I do this at least it is coherent enough. I used the following example a while back on this board for someone that asked the same kind of question. I walked up to the lunch counter,and saw the waitress wearing a short skirt and a pony tail that swished from side to side while she wiped down the counter. An old man wearing a dirty shirt smoking a non filter and having his morning coffee flirted with the her as she passed by. I could see she liked to tease and gave him a little playful nod and smirk. The old diner's floor was worn in a path leading to the red clored stools where two seats were open for me to chose from. The smell of bacon floated through the joint like a heart attack on an episode of ER. I sat and down and I touched the sticky counter top where she had just finished cleaning. The old smoker asked me to pass the cream and he coughed when I slid it over to him. I did this on the spot while posting and came up with the 1st verse. She was wearing a short skirt Her pony tail swished from side to side An old man with a dirty shirt Flirted with her and told her lies If I had written out 2-3 pages then I could have finished this...maybe I should:)

 

That's pretty cool.

 

I've, on rare occasion, written a song 'inspired' by something I'd already written, a poem or short story.

 

But what I've really done a lot of is the opposite... take a song that's already written and expand it or some aspect of it into a little vignette. (That has been a primary staple of the prose in my blog, actually.) I got into that when I was promoting my tracks on the old Mp3.com, which had a very active BB -- but where everyone ignored all the sub-forums and just posted in the main/general topic forum. Blatant self promo was an accepted part of the culture, so there was a lot of competition for the attention of forum members. But it seemed to be one of the ways that folks found out about new tunes, there. Anyhow, I found that a good story combined with a good graphic could work pretty well to hook in some listeners...

[Lee Knight]

I like to do that as well Elias...just write out a 2-3 page short story of an event. Do it from beginning to end in the order it happened. No rhymes just the details of the story. After I have completed the story I go back to the beginning and find the most interesting detail to start the song. From there I continue in sequence looking for the best details to write the rhymes and in order to an even shorter story. (the song) It helps me keep the story in order. If I do this at least it is coherent enough. I used the following example a while back on this board for someone that asked the same kind of question. I walked up to the lunch counter,and saw the waitress wearing a short skirt and a pony tail that swished from side to side while she wiped down the counter. An old man wearing a dirty shirt smoking a non filter and having his morning coffee flirted with the her as she passed by. I could see she liked to tease and gave him a little playful nod and smirk. The old diner's floor was worn in a path leading to the red clored stools where two seats were open for me to chose from. The smell of bacon floated through the joint like a heart attack on an episode of ER. I sat and down and I touched the sticky counter top where she had just finished cleaning. The old smoker asked me to pass the cream and he coughed when I slid it over to him. I did this on the spot while posting and came up with the 1st verse. She was wearing a short skirt Her pony tail swished from side to side An old man with a dirty shirt Flirted with her and told her lies If I had written out 2-3 pages then I could have finished this...maybe I should:)

 

That is pretty cool...

[tbry]

It takes awhile to write out the 2-3 or 4 pages but when your done you have the framework for a song. There will be parts you have to fill in to get rhymes and other details which is fine,but the basic structure is there and when your done you can throw out all the stuff you don't use.

 

 

That is pretty cool...

[Stackabones]

I've heard about this technique and done it to a limited extent. I've trawled among various stuff (including posts online) and used it here and there for songs and whatnot.

[tbry]

You write so well that it would be easy for you.

 

 

 

I've heard about this technique and done it to a limited extent. I've trawled among various stuff (including posts online) and used it here and there for songs and whatnot.

 

[Stackabones]

 

The smell of bacon floated through the joint like a heart attack on an episode of ER.

 

 

I think that is an amazing sentence. Funny and true.

[Elias Graves]

 

That's pretty cool. I've, on rare occasion, written a song 'inspired' by something I'd already written, a poem or short story. But what I've really done a lot of is the opposite... take a song that's already written and expand it or some aspect of it into a little vignette. (That has been a primary staple of the prose in my blog, actually.) I got into that when I was promoting my tracks on the old Mp3.com, which had a very active BB -- but where everyone ignored all the sub-forums and just posted in the main/general topic forum. Blatant self promo was an accepted part of the culture, so there was a lot of competition for the attention of forum members. But it seemed to be one of the ways that folks found out about new tunes, there. Anyhow, I found that a good story combined with a good graphic could work pretty well to hook in some listeners...

 

 

Now we are kind of moving from structure to inspiration, but it all kind of ties together.

 

I have a lot of material that was spawned from a single line of a story or song. It usually has nothing whatever to do with the original; it just sparked something.

 

There is a line in Yes' "Yours Is No Disgrace"

"Lost in losing circumstances that's just where you are."

 

I always thought that line sounded more like "Most amusing circumstances"

 

I ended up using my altered line in a song about a woman's indignance toward her priest after a rebuke. Go figure. Inspiration can lead in strange directions.

[Stackabones]

 

There is a line in Yes' "Yours Is No Disgrace" "Lost in losing circumstances that's just where you are." I always thought that line sounded more like "Most amusing circumstances"

 

 

Mondegreen.

[Elias Graves]

 

Mondegreen .

 

 

That happens to me quite often. In this particular case, it was years before I actually read the printed lyrics and realized my mistake. I liked it better he way I originally heard it. I decided that my misheard line was too good to waste so I worked it in.

 

"The most amusing circumstances were to be found upstairs

A crowd of red-eyed ladies with curlers in their hair"

 

Not much in common with Yes, but the line fit.

 

How about "Excuse me while I kiss this guy"?

 

EG

[Johnny_1Nut]

Cool, this really turned in to a good thread. Thanks ya'll. I'm dealing with some pretty heavy stuff lately and not on much, so I'm sorry for posting the topic and bolting like that. I'm trying to focus on this project I'm working on to try and stay sane though. I'm going to come back to this thread when I have something to input, I'm kind of a space cadet right now. There's some really good points and insight here though.

[Zemmy]

Fortunately, I've been able to write songs in every genre from country to punk. And I have to agree, let the song itself dictate the structure. It's your art. My last song had 3 verses, no chorus, and 2 guitar solos. Sold it 20 minutes after I wrote it. There is no wrong answer.