Members blue2blue Posted December 6, 2009 Members Share Posted December 6, 2009 I try to stay away from equipment advice, since I haven't kept up with current products. I'll say that I'm not a fan of Behringer. That said, they own the sub $100 gear market. (Wacky thing is, back when I started putting together my first home recording rig in the early 80s, when a buck was worth ~$2.38 there was no sub-$100 market to speak of.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Badtux Posted December 6, 2009 Members Share Posted December 6, 2009 As others have noted, you'll get better results over on the recording forum. But in general: 1. In-computer sound cards are notorious for noisy recordings. They live inside the computer case with a lot of very electrically noisy stuff, with no distance or RF shielding between them and the CPU, graphics card, and other racket, and while it is theoretically possible to design a sound card that doesn't pick up all that racket, reality is that all of the modest-priced ones do. You want a USB sound system like the M-Audio others have mentioned if you want a low-cost way of recording that gets rid of all the artifacts of the in-computer sound card. Check over at the recording forum for suggestions. Note that best case is that you won't need a mixer at all for anything other than setting up feedbacky or distorted stuff because your USB sound system will already have XLR inputs for your mikes. 2. SM-58's are okay mikes for male vocalists in a live recording environment, but tend to be boomy when recording percussion instruments or bass. I wonder if that's what you're running into? Again, check over at the recording forum for suggestions for better mikes for those purposes. 3. To add air to a track you generally add midrange, not treble. And if the track isn't "loud", compression will take care of that. Again, check over at the recording forum for suggestions on best EQ and compression for what you're trying to do (getting the picture now? ). 4. Speakers hooked to your computer are a lost cause. The monitor jack on my USB sound system runs to good-quality monitor headphones. The output jack on my computer's sound card to use to preview the mix runs to an actual "bookshelf" type stereo so I can hear what it sounds like on actual real life equipment, not to "computer speakers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 6, 2009 Members Share Posted December 6, 2009 cant say i know them - i hate to say this but i recorded and mixed a whole album on a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eclepto Funk Posted December 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 6, 2009 excellent guys thank you so much for all the info i think i have a lot of room to improve here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 In order of importance: ... 3) ChickenMonkey :cry: I made the software suggestion because 1) it's something he can do tonight, and 2) it fixed some of my timing issues, which might be partly to blame for his percieved performance problems. But yeah, source sound is still the most important factor. In regard to monitors, when I'm mixing something with more than two or three tracks, I run it from the computer through my television set. I haven't ponied up for monitors, and I don't really have much room for them in my "studio", and the TV gives a fairly realistic sense of how it will sound on a stereo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 it fixed some of my timing issues, which might be partly to blame for his percieved performance problems. Variable soundcard and midi latency has taken years off my life. If that is part of the problem, fix it pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eeglug Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 Eclepto, I've skimmed this thread and there is indeed a lot of good info. My 2 cents: I think your weakest link is the Radio Shack mixer. Your M-Audio Delta should be perfectly adequate. I use an SM57 also and it isn't noisy. (But it is a little lacking in high-end sparkle.) A better preamp instead of the RadioShack to use with your mic and/or instrument would really help. I have a ceiling on my budget - I feel that this music thing I do is just a hobby and it isn't going to be any more than that. As much as I'd like to sound better, I can't justify spending beyond a certain amount. I'd love an RNP (as Ram suggests) but it's really beyond my self-imposed budget limit. I instead have two low budget mic preamps and each have been adequate for my needs: Studio Projects VTB1 and the M-Audio DMP-3. You'll see advocates for each one. I slightly prefer the DMP-3. (BTW, it's possible that CM's Fast Track Pro has the same preamp components as my DMP-3.) Another thing I'll mention is that I find micing an amp to be a noise inducing process. (I've probably not been going about things the right way...but anyways...) One thing to consider is to use something like a Line 6 POD instead of a full amp/mic setup. The POD isn't the only option - there are other similar products by Korg, Digitech, Boss, Zoom and others. The tone connoisseurs here will balk at the idea of doing this but I think one can make it work - and it might be less noisy. (Now that I'm thinking of it, some amps have a direct output jack so you don't have to mic it - does the MicroCube have one?) Another possibility is to plug your guitar directly into your mixer/preamp (no amplifier at all in your chain) and use an amp simulator plugin in N-Track to get an amp sound. Again, the tone experts don't like this approach but it's something to consider - there are free plugins out there that some say are decent. From pics/video you've used in the past, I've seen you using a Telecaster which (I think) has single coil pickups. Those pickups are naturally noisier than humbuckers. When you're recording, make sure you turn yourself and guitar to that 'sweet spot' where the noise is the least. You may want to consider using a guitar with humbucking pickups. When I was looking into recording software I briefly considered (and used) N-Track. I ultimately didn't go for it because I was reading too many complaints about its stability and Reaper was getting lots of good notices. BUT, if N-Track is not crashing on you I think it's a perfectly good tool to use. It will not make anything noisier than it already is. Good luck and check back in with your progress or follow-up questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 So........ Perhaps you should consider some incremental upgrades to your rig. Your stuff sounds pretty good but you can surely make improvements to your sound by listening to all of the excellent advise above. In this game of capturing audio cleanly you do tend to get what you pay for. Every component in your chain will leave its signature on your sound and getting your tunes to be loud and proud without adding unwanted noises and artifacts is a game of inches. All this coming from a guy who is still using an ancient MBox. I agree with the suggestions of going to a USB rig and losing that Radio Shack mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eeglug Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 I agree with the suggestions of going to a USB rig and losing that Radio Shack mixer. I agree with losing the RadioShack mixer but a big NO to the USB rig . He says he's using an M-Audio Delta card as his interface and I say he should keep it - it'll have lower latency and less potential for dropouts and other issues associated with USB interfaces. The problem lies in that he's feeding his Delta from that crappy RS mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 7, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 7, 2009 For me... the most important things are 1. Knowing your monitoring (however you achieve that, phones, whatever, damn the experts) 2. Getting a clean, worthy signal from a well placed mic. Number 2 is a lot more involved than it sounds. Clean is easy. Get the single channel Rane preamp and plug your 57 into it. You can make a number 1 hit with that rig. But all the eq and fine conversion and LA2As and U47s etc etc etc are way less important than making sure what's going into the mic is worthy. Stickboy nailed it. Tuning, pitch, meter and groove. Sound quality is more determined by mic placement than anything. I'm not talking some dark art here. Too bassy? Move the mic back. Not enough bass? You know. And paraphrasing a quote from a forgotten source... Moving the mic 1 inch has way more impact on the sound than any converter or pre etc. Learn to listen to how your placement effects the sound. Too close and the proximity effect gets too bassy. Too far away and you're too roomy... or thin. Unless you want roomy for that 2nd guitar overdub or back up vocal or what ever. Know what you want and learn how to move the mic to get what it is you want. It's not rocket science but it is a simple science and a deep art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 The problem lies in that he's feeding his Delta from that crappy RS mixer. I defer to that suggestion as I have no experience with the Delta card. And........while mic placement is so critical to getting things off to a good start, the entire gain staging thing on the way in is crucial to achieving a clean signal that can be brought up to commercial levels. I spend a great deal of time getting my preamps working at that spot just below that hiss level before I start tracking so I can keep my noise reduction software in the box instead of on my tracks where it leaves nasty artifacts. I used to have a Behringer mixer in my chain (fool that I am). When I took it out the difference was.....clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 Get a tube amp... Micro cube doesn't cut it imo. Its a great little amp for practicing but not for recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDR Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 the entire gain staging thing on the way in is crucial to achieving a clean signal that can be brought up to commercial levels. I spend a great deal of time getting my preamps working at that spot just below that hiss level before I start tracking so I can keep my noise reduction software in the box instead of on my tracks where it leaves nasty artifacts. ...time well spent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djowens123 Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 The couple that i heard sounded ok. Not much hiss on my laptop. For vocals and acoustic guitar buy a mic pre amp and use it in between your mic and soundcard. Buy as good a mic as you can. Preferably a condenser. For speakers you should have a really lo end {censored} pair and a hi quality pair as possible to make comparisons. The user forums on this site are a good place to start. I've also found SOS good for reviews and advice regarding effects/recording etc. Hope i'm aloud to say that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Badtux Posted December 7, 2009 Members Share Posted December 7, 2009 Get a tube amp... Micro cube doesn't cut it imo. Its a great little amp for practicing but not for recording. Hiss isn't coming from the Micro cube and it sounds just fine for the sound he's going for (I have one, BTW, so I know exactly what it sounds like and what it's good for, you don't want one if you're trying to replicate the sound of a Marshall stack but for what it is, it's a good little amp). But going from the back of the Micro (the headphone/PA jack) into the mixer or sound card probably gets you a better sound than with the SM58 pointed at the thing because of the characteristic boominess of the SM58 and the limits of a 5" speaker being driven by 2 watts of power. Not to mention the noise introduced by the SM58. When I compress a SM58 I get audible crackle-hiss that isn't there when I do a direct mike-to-mike compare with an Audix OM-2 (a similar competing dynamic mike) with the exact same processing chain. The SM58 is the "standard" for live vocal performing because it's older than dirt and every venue has them so you need to know how to sing into the thing (which takes a definite technique to avoid the boominess on loud parts) but it's really not a very good mike even for dynamic mikes. A noise gate before the compressor is an absolute necessity with the SM58. Definitely do agree with all those who are stating that preamps in that RS mixer are an issue. One nice thing about the USB recording system I'm using is that the mike preamps are onboard and, while not as quiet as they could be, are still a whole lot better than anything you'll find in a cheap Behringer mixer (probably all he could afford at the price point he's talking about). Note that I'm not recommending the one I own because technology has moved on in the years since I bought it and the new stuff is even quieter, has better sample rates, and less lag, but even this old one is much quieter than a Behringer (or Radio Shack) mixer running into an onboard sound card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eclepto Funk Posted December 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 thanks for all the amazing info not that it matters much, but i use an SM57 i think i'm pretty sure what my route is now. first, work on tune and timing issues, which will be an ongoing thing. also no more speeding up songs at all. i will switch to an USB mixer first, since it's cheaper (the model Chicken Monkey suggested seems ample for me) within the week. i am also getting a condenser mic for voice and guitar i'll see how that goes and then consider changing from N-Track to something else. i downloaded Reaper and it seems i might make it work. i can't seem to find an equalizer in there. i'll try recording the same song in both and seeing how that goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted December 8, 2009 Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 I agree with losing the RadioShack mixer but a big NO to the USB rig . He says he's using an M-Audio Delta card as his interface and I say he should keep it - it'll have lower latency and less potential for dropouts and other issues associated with USB interfaces. The problem lies in that he's feeding his Delta from that crappy RS mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eclepto Funk Posted December 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 yup i saw that my plan is to try something different first (USB) and see how that goes. i can then go back to the sound card w/ one of the devices he suggested and see how i like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockinrobby Posted December 8, 2009 Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 Check out someone with sound you really like? And ask them some qstns about how they do it. Treat your ears to some of my website :-) I'm still learning, but I'm starting to crank out some pretty good mixes :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eeglug Posted December 8, 2009 Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 The USB device Chicken Monkey has is the Fast Track Pro. It plays a similar role as the Delta card you already have - they're both audio interfaces for your computer. There are 3 methods of getting audio into your computer: by PCI soundcards, by firewire port or by USB. You already have the Delta, which is PCI. Out of the 3 methods, PCI is the fastest and most reliable. USB is the slowest and most prone to latency and other technical difficulties - it can work fine for some people but can be troublesome and frustrating for others. It's kind of unpredictable as to how a USB interface will or will not work with your system. That's why I'm trying to dissuade you from going that route because it could be a world of hurt that you do not need. I would only ever recommend USB as an audio interface method if you had absolutely no other choice. CM has a new laptop and he has no choice but to use a USB interface. I also have a new laptop and want to try recording with it - quite frankly I am not looking forward to trying out USB interfaces for it (because of the potential headaches). So I still stick by my recommendation of a decent affordable mic preamp - I gave a couple of examples in my earlier post. Lee Knight also recommended a Rane mic preamp and I've read very good reviews on them. Your Delta card works; this is a classic case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". BTW, Reaper does come with a bunch of plugins and including an EQ plugin called ReaEQ. If you have Reaper questions feel free to ask. I use it and I can try to fumble my way to giving an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MusicalSchizo Posted December 8, 2009 Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 I have an M-Audio Delta 44, and I actually really like it - it's worked flawlessly for me. That's not a problem at all with your rig. Just get a little mixer with decent mic preamps to start - that Radio Shack one is probably noisy and simply not good enough. Also, I highly recommend Reaper as well - it does a ton for next to nothing (and if you were feeling particularly unethical, you can use it forever without buying it). Also, having accurate monitors and learning what to expect from them (by listening to familiar recordings that you like) is excellent advice. Best of luck!Brian V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockinrobby Posted December 8, 2009 Members Share Posted December 8, 2009 The most important advice... The people who are giving you advise? Go listen to their stuff? If you like it? Take their advice, if you love it? "Seek their advice", If you wish that one day your stuff could sound like theirs? "pay them for their advice". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eclepto Funk Posted December 20, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 ok, an update here i did switch from N-Track Studio to Reaper. it seems tighter and not as laggy for some reason. could be wishful thinking. i did order the DMP3 preamp, and took out the Radio Shack mixer. noise level does seem to be much, much lower. did buy a condenser microphone, but splurged a little and got a Rode NT1A. it does seem to make my voice and guitar sound better; mostly, i've noticed i don't have to shout so much into the mike. in fact, now i have to hold back, which suits my style very nicely. so all in all, i am pretty exited about recording stuff during the coming year. i don't expect a night-to-day miracle, but it should sound better than before. thanks all again for all the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stickboymusic Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 great news - hope it all goes well x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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