My sound, being influenced, and writing catchy stuff

[EJD]

So I really need some help and advice.

 

1: Writing good stuff. I honestly cannot think of a great riff for the life of me. I hear all the great riffs and melodies of my favourite bands, and I think... how the hell do they write stuff so catchy and memorable? I just can't do that. I can't make a great, memorable song. So does it require more knowledge of music - chords, scales, etc? Or what? Can I do it in my head, or do I need actual notes and scales in front of me on a guitar in order to work on stuff?

 

2: Influences. I'm confused... this is going to sound completely stupid, but how can I be influenced by my favourite bands? Muse, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Dire Straits, The Drills/Powder (Phil X), Amy MacDonald, AC/DC... these are all bands and artists that I love. The impression I get when people say "influences" is that they take a bit of each band, and mold it all together to form their own sound and style... but, again, I can't seem to do this

 

3: My own style and sound. Every band I see has their own "thing"... their own style, their own sound. How do I find my own? I want to be different, not just a ripoff of who I listen to. I want to find my own sound.

 

I'm sorry if I sound stupid... I think I do... but I'm in a rut, and could really use advice on the above issues

 

Cheers.

[Stackabones]

Ethan, you ask some good questions. Unfortunately, there are no easy, good answers. But that won't stop me from giving it a shot!

 

1. Writing good stuff I'd get rid of the idea of writing something "good" and just write stuff. More knowledge of music is admirable goal, but it won't necessarily make you a better songwriter, though it could make you a more knowledgeable one. If you can write a riff in your head, then do so! Record it and move it over to your instrument of choice. By the way, songs don't have to have riffs. Perhaps you should expand your knowledge of songs and song forms. IMO the best way to do this is to learn songs you love by heart -- and then learn timeless classics (those songs that are great, have been great, and will be great tomorrow: make your list and learn 'em). Every song you know by heart is a masterclass on how to write a song.

 

2. Influences Can you tell that Eddie Van Halen used to slow down records of Eric Clapton to cop his licks? Or that Shakespeare borrowed stories and plots from Boccaccio? Influences can affect you directly or indirectly. Don't get hung up on either one.

 

3. My own sound and style Just keep writing and playing and recording.

 

As far as ruts, I have a different view of them. Most folks tell you to lay off or go on holiday or take up another project or whatever -- and those are all good and can be effective. But I say stay with it. Stay in the rut. Too often folks view progress as an A-to-B affair -- all horizontal, gotta get somewhere, rush rush rush. But ruts are all about going veritical, getting deeper. Patience is crucial. Don't let the nanosecond mindhive lure to something shinier and faster and newer. Stay in the rut.

[Chicken Monkey]

 

1. Writing good stuff I'd get rid of the idea of writing something "good" and just write stuff.

 

 

I don't know a writer who's happy with themselves creatively who didn't start here. If you only enjoy writing great music, quit now. You have to take pleasure in the actual process, piecing together sounds and words for the sake of creating, not for the sake of the end result. Start sucking, and maybe someday you'll stop.

[blue2blue]

It just takes time to find your own artistic voice...and that comes from working and creating a lot.

 

Think about the great painters... they didn't just suddenly start turning out masterpieces in their mature style.

 

Often they spent many years working to find themselves as artists, exploring, experimenting, quite likely imitating and/or inverting and/or subverting works and styles that went before.

 

Patience and practice...

[LeonardScaper]

I have some very good advise for you.

 

Read the above three posts again.

[sfarfsky]

scales and theory will help you write riffs. learning your favorite riffs and licks will also help.

 

lots of popular riffs are pretty cheesy. sometimes it fits the song

[teambulimic]

I'm go with a potentially unpopular opinion and say, don't learn other peoples songs.

 

Of course, there is tons of insight to be gained by "playing through the hands of the pros". No one but a moron would dispute that. But until a couple days ago, I didn't know a single song written by anyone other than me. It may sound strange, but I found the most inspiring part of writing to me was that to me, no one elses songs existed on a guitar in my hands. None that I knew. I got a lot of weird looks for it. But I feel like I have developed what I can call my own sound and I feel it's largely attributed to that.

 

If you try something new you'll end up with something new right? I dunno maybe not.

 

oh and write a {censored}ing ton.

[Stackabones]

oh and write a {censored}ing ton.

 

{censored}, yeah!

[LeonardScaper]

 

This is not only an unpopular opinion it is utterly impossible.

 

 

Well....I need to say....

 

I stopped learning other folks tunes in the late seventies when I realized I was not a good enough player to do them justice. I started writing my own then and there.

 

Since then I have written.........a great many songs.

 

Not the norm, I know.

[kurdy]

 

Well....I need to say.... I stopped learning other folks tunes in the late seventies when I realized I was not a good enough player to do them justice. I started writing my own then and there. Since then I have written.........a great many songs. Not the norm, I know.

 

 

I believe the gyst of Stackabones post is that learning other people's songs is not the same as learning to play other people's songs. Learning to play the songs of others on an instrument is something one can easily choose to do or not do.

 

But let's say there's a song that comes on the radio that gets played over and over again (like on most radio stations), and you find yourself singing along, or it gets stuck in your head. Guess what? You've learned the song. Whether you wanted to or not.

 

In order to not learn any new songs since the '70s, you would have had to shield yourself from being able to hear any music that was written or recorded after '79. And in this day and age, when music is literally everywhere, that's a tough thing to do. You'd pretty much have to become a hermit. We are always hearing, always being influenced by something, and everything we hear shapes our musical sensibilities. I think that was Stackabone's point.

 

Anyway, as far as learning to play music one didn't write, personally, I think it's only beneficial. It expands your musical pallete, and allows you to pick up different rhythms, chord changes and styles that you may not have otherwise thought of. Not to mention it trains your ear and makes you a better musician. The alternative to that would be burying your nose in books on music theory. Which one sounds like more fun?

[kurdy]

Just to respond to the original post, I think you can solve problem #1 if you stop worrying about problems #2 and #3. Don't worry about trying to be influenced. Just write. Your influences will come out the way they come out, and your own style will just develop naturally, the more you write.

[Dingoist]

oh and write a {censored}ing ton.

 

Metric or Imperial? :poke:

 

I think the previous posts have pretty much covered it. Don't worry about being great, heck, realize that sometimes it'll just suck, especially at the beginning. And something I've learned is that if I'm completely satisfied early on the process, it SUCKS. It's being unsatisfied which gets me really digging into and trying to make it work and usually ends up way better (though, I wouldn't classify my writing as great yet).

 

Then being influenced? Well, just accept that you are but you don't have to try to emulate that sound. Perhaps it's a lyrically quality, a phrase, a rhythm... Don't worry about it.

 

Then #3, getting your sound, well is... playing something the way you want to play it My sound is influenced by my choices of guitars, amps, the fact I'm a lefty but play a right handed guitar, will mostly choose the acoustic over electric, I like the sound of a honky-tonk piano over a grand, played irish trad for a number of years, etc, etc. That's all my sound. I don't try to emulate others sounds music, but if there is something I like, then I try to learn it and see how it fits into my style. And style/sound evolves too.

 

Excuse my :blah: ... others probably have covered the ground more eloquently that I.

[ido1957]

I think your output is directly proportional to your input. If you input lots of songs written by other people and learn to play them you have that material to draw upon when writing your own tunes. Theory, even basic, will speed up the process of learning and writing also.

I write what's inside me and everything I write is the result of everything I've learned over the years of playing other people's music.

It would be pretty hard to code in C++ if you never took a few courses and practiced some sample code. Same thing....

[LeonardScaper]

 

I believe the gyst of Stackabones post is that learning other people's songs is not the same as learning to play other people's songs. Learning to play the songs of others on an instrument is something one can easily choose to do or not do. But let's say there's a song that comes on the radio that gets played over and over again (like on most radio stations), and you find yourself singing along, or it gets stuck in your head. Guess what? You've learned the song. Whether you wanted to or not.

 

 

Ah, yes........you are so right.

[teambulimic]

 

This is not only an unpopular opinion it is utterly impossible. As a musician (as a human being!), you have been learning other people's songs all your life.

 

 

I think that there is a pretty distinct difference from knowing a song in your head to translating it onto an instrument though. Wouldn't you agree that your examples were more likely examples of melodies that one can recall rather than songs? I know I would certainly have a hard time remembering any real detail about any of those.

 

Everyone has the instinct to learn different songs in order to better understand songwriting but I think the vast majority of aspiring musicians miss the benefit of "forgetting what you know" and just being fresh with your palette. I can't say I have any science to back it up but I've seen people get stuck with their favorites band's "sound" in their fingers. Sometimes that's what they want but I'm saying if you're looking for originality (debatable about whether that exists or not, but for conversations sake) the only place you're going to find it is in your own head.

 

Do everything. There's something to be learned from all of it.

[Stackabones]

Do everything. There's something to be learned from all of it.

 

Agreed!

[rockinrobby]

I typically get the idea for the song based on the title, which is typically the hook? And then I get ideas about how to sing it, i.e., the melody for the hook? And then build out the chorus based on that, and then build the verses around it.

[EJD]

Thanks guys. A lot of great help here

[Chicken Monkey]

 

Everyone has the instinct to learn different songs in order to better understand songwriting but I think the vast majority of aspiring musicians miss the benefit of "forgetting what you know" and just being fresh with your palette. I can't say I have any science to back it up but I've seen people get stuck with their favorites band's "sound" in their fingers. Sometimes that's what they want but I'm saying if you're looking for originality (debatable about whether that exists or not, but for conversations sake) the only place you're going to find it is in your own head.

 

 

Keep up with an instrument long enough, and you don't need to "learn" how to play other peoples songs, just like you don't need to learn the words to a song you hear over and over again--you absorb it. Once you're familiar enough with both your instrument and a song, its right there under your fingers whether you've learned to play it or not.

 

Since you're (hopefully) going to wind up there anyway, learning other people's songs is kind of a short cut to where you're going to end up.

[EJD]

Keep up with an instrument long enough, and you don't need to "learn" how to play other peoples songs, just like you don't need to learn the words to a song you hear over and over again--you absorb it. Once you're familiar enough with both your instrument and a song, its right there under your fingers whether you've learned to play it or not. Since you're (hopefully) going to wind up there anyway, learning other people's songs is kind of a short cut to where you're going to end up.

 

I sure hope that's where I'm going to end up

 

Eventually, I'd like to be so proficient that I can play anything right away... like, I could hear something, then play it back. Or simply play what's in my head, and just let it flow... I dream of that.

 

Whistling is a good example of what I want to be able to do on guitar. If you hear a tune, you whistle it... if you get a riff in your head, you can whistle it right away... I would love to be able to do that on guitar. Just be so fluent that I can play notes and music just as naturally as whistling or talking.

 

I posted in the Lesson Loft that I wanted to be able to do this, and I was directed to a good set of lessons by fellow forumite Gennation (which I believe were written by him).

 

Thanks, guys

[Oswlek]

Some great stuff here, rather than echo I'll toss something new out there. I always thought I was weird because I would write basslines and solos vocally before on an instrument. While not a good enough singer to be improving perfectly in key, I am more adept at adlibbing vocally than anything else. The best riffs and instrument runs I've ever come up with were first recorded vocally and then transcribed to the intstrument in question.

 

If you are having a difficult time coming up with licks on the guitar, perhaps this technique will free you up a bit.

 

Just recently, I read that David Gilmour does much the same thing for his solos, so apparently it has some merit!

[Lee Knight]

 

Some great stuff here, rather than echo I'll toss something new out there. I always thought I was weird because I would write basslines and solos vocally before on an instrument. While not a good enough singer to be improving perfectly in key, I am more adept at adlibbing vocally than anything else. The best riffs and instrument runs I've ever come up with were first recorded vocally and then transcribed to the intstrument in question. If you are having a difficult time coming up with licks on the guitar, perhaps this technique will free you up a bit. Just recently I read that David Gilmour does much the same thing for his solos, so apparently is has some merit!

 

 

That's got a lot of merit. A lot of soloists sing while they play. You can see them singing the notes as they play them. It's very much the same mentality.

[JimSF76]

I haven't seen this suggestion yet. I have always told the guys I play with to record everything. Something that sounds like {censored} to you today may sound great to you tomorrow. That happens alot more than you might think.

[LondonSi]

Or maybe there's another suggestion for it that nobody has come up with: maybe you're just not cut out for it.

 

(I genuinely don't mean that in a nasty way)

[eeglug]

 

The best riffs and instrument runs I've ever come up with were first recorded vocally and then transcribed to the intstrument in question. If you are having a difficult time coming up with licks on the guitar, perhaps this technique will free you up a bit. Just recently, I read that David Gilmour does much the same thing for his solos, so apparently it has some merit!

 

 

I mentioned in another thread that it's a common practice among young composers (eg. those being formally trained in composition) to not compose at an instrument - just do it in your head and/or on a piece of paper using notation. Writing with your instrument in your hand encourages you to follow patterns ingrained in your fingers instead of letting your creative mind to roam freely. So I applaud the idea of using the voice as your writing tool (although it may also present its own limitations as well).