Anyone use constructs/guidelines when songwriting?

[Phait]

I am not a very experienced songwriter. I can come up with riffs, good lyrics... I find more often than not I just mess around on guitar over a basic drum track and try to piece it together, but more often than not it fails - cause frankly I probably don't think about what I'm doing.

 

So I sat down today and wrote on a piece of paper the basic construct of a (rock) song from bottom up:

 

 

 

guitar (lead)

 

guitar (rhythm)

 

bass

 

drums

 

 

I also kept note that I should remember how many measures I want a riff to be, what time signature (I understand them on a basic level, I think).

 

See I just hate all the technical aspects of this because I'm more of a free-flowing type and just piece things together until they sound songlike. But I think that's inhibiting my ability to write a finished song.

 

I was thinking I need to break this down into a formula or something -- see it on paper... I guess I'm just more visually minded, in a sense. Then perhaps I can get down a real process to utilize.

[Todzilla]

Hmmm...

 

I don't use structural rules, at least consciously, but I have a few other rules.

 

1) Don't let the natural emphasis of syllables conflict with the beat of the song. (e.g., and the rockets red glare, THE bombs bursting in air)

 

2) Let the verse lyrics serve a separate narrative function from the chorus lyrics, same for bridge

 

3) Don't be afraid to let the song tell you how it wants to be written.

[blue2blue]

I'm also an intuitive, expulsive type writer, mostly intuition driven.

 

And, when it comes, it tends to come somewhat naturally for me. Except when it doesn't -- and then it can be like pulling teeth finishing a song after the inspiration has fled. Sometimes it doesn't get done for years. Sometimes not at all. And sometimes a poor song has to limp along for years with a filler line or even verse -- you know, the kind of thing you stick in just so you can get through the song as you're writing it and then nothing better keeps coming along...

 

 

But, I do have to say that the knowledge of structure and schema that I have picked up along the way has, indeed, often helped out, and, if I had it to do over again, I would probably be a little quicker to try to look at things in an organized, analytical mindset. (But then, that was almost anathema to me in my first decade playing and writing.)

[rockinrobby]

[SomeoneYouKnew]

 

See I just hate all the technical aspects of this because I'm more of a free-flowing type and just piece things together until they sound songlike. But I think that's inhibiting my ability to write a finished song. I was thinking I need to break this down into a formula or something -- see it on paper... I guess I'm just more visually minded, in a sense. Then perhaps I can get down a real process to utilize.

Analyse a few songs you like and see how they're constructed. There are a lot of variations, but this is a common map.

 

Intro (guitar riff)

Verse 1

Chorus

Verse 2

Chorus

Guitar solo (variations on guitar riff)

Verse 3

Chorus

 

 

Carefully analyse the way the melody line in the verses compare to the guitar riff. Same with the chorus. They're all linked together, even though they seem very different at first glance. In terms of lyrical content, generally the chorus is less specific. It's the stripped down, general message. The lines are simple but powerful. If you have a hook, you can't find a better place to put it than in the chorus.

 

There's nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing. Structure can be helpful in the design process. But you aren't forced to follow a formula, either.

 

You might think of it like building houses. If you start with a pile of lumber and bricks and just start trying to make something out of them without a plan, you probably won't get too far on your first attempts.

 

Later, after you've written a few, you won't be so dependent on a pre-designed layout and will be able to let the song find it's own space.

[Cliftonb]

No. Absolutely not.

 

 

Ever...

[Ernest Buckley]

I also kept note that I should remember how many measures I want a riff to be, what time signature (I understand them on a basic level, I think). See I just hate all the technical aspects of this because I'm more of a free-flowing type and just piece things together until they sound songlike. But I think that's inhibiting my ability to write a finished song. I was thinking I need to break this down into a formula or something -- see it on paper... I guess I'm just more visually minded, in a sense. Then perhaps I can get down a real process to utilize.

 

I have a system I use pretty much 99.9% of the time. This is after years of struggling to make my songs sound like what I thought they should sound like. Granted, before I had this system, some would argue that my songs were more "original". Others would congratulate me for figuring it out so you have to decide because once you do construct a system and start abiding by it because it works, you`ll pretty much write like that most of the time. So, no matter what, someone will say you`ve pigeonholed yourself.

 

My advice to you if you are looking for a system... listen and study a song you really enjoy. Sit down and write down the chord progression, the melody, the format of the song:verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo, breakdown, chorus... etc... Whatever the case is for that song, write a song using the same exact chords and format. Then take the melody and move a couple of notes around, changing the rhythm here and there and obviously, coming up with your own lyrics.

 

What you`ll have is an instant song that you sort of wrote but more importantly, you will have discovered a system. Listen to other songs from the same artist and see if they use a similar system for their other songs. Most of the time, you will find they use certain little "tricks" or techniques.

 

Let me know if this works for you because it has for me.

[grace_slick]

I have SO many songs I love and would be so proud to say I'd written, but they're all very different...does this mean if I wrote down the structures of those songs I love, that I'd then have MANY different systems of writing my own songs based on them? lol.

 

Anyway, I have no system except...

 

Step 1 - just play, experiment with sounds and feels, be completely loose and free and creative. This is how ideas, concepts and ideas are formed (for me anyway).

 

Step 2 - get a TAD organised in terms of confirming a bit what you want to hear out of the ideas you've created in Step 1. Get a bit excited in your mind about the developing tune you've got going and record something. Doesn't matter how rough it is.

 

Step 3 - before you put other tracks on it (unless you use a drum track to create of course, or in Step 2), take a step back and try and hear what else you want on your song...try and hear it as it will be when it's finished. This bit is easy for me. Step 5 is where I tend to suck so I've recently started doing Step 4, below, first.

 

Step 4 - Map out the song you want to make. On paper. This is the only main part of the process that requires organisation in my opinion. Organisation too early stifles the creativity, but you do need it at some stage (or I do anyway). Write down stuff like the order of things you want...like it begins with a guitar, then drums come in, then another guitar, then the bass, then a piano might appear for a bit and disappear, etc. Then try and organise it all into verse, chorus, verse, and so on.

 

Step 5 - now go and record something. This is hardest, cause I find my original ideas get lost in the playing and recording, and the song takes on a life of itself, which is fine, but only to an extent.

[Ernest Buckley]

 

I have SO many songs I love and would be so proud to say I'd written, but they're all very different...does this mean if I wrote down the structures of those songs I love, that I'd then have MANY different systems of writing my own songs based on them? lol. Anyway, I have no system except... Step 1 - just play, experiment with sounds and feels, be completely loose and free and creative. This is how ideas, concepts and ideas are formed (for me anyway). Step 2 - get a TAD organised in terms of confirming a bit what you want to hear out of the ideas you've created in Step 1. Get a bit excited in your mind about the developing tune you've got going and record something. Doesn't matter how rough it is. Step 3 - before you put other tracks on it (unless you use a drum track to create of course, or in Step 2), take a step back and try and hear what else you want on your song...try and hear it as it will be when it's finished. This bit is easy for me. Step 5 is where I tend to suck so I've recently started doing Step 4, below, first. Step 4 - Map out the song you want to make. On paper. This is the only main part of the process that requires organisation in my opinion. Organisation too early stifles the creativity, but you do need it at some stage (or I do anyway). Write down stuff like the order of things you want...like it begins with a guitar, then drums come in, then another guitar, then the bass, then a piano might appear for a bit and disappear, etc. Then try and organise it all into verse, chorus, verse, and so on. Step 5 - now go and record something. This is hardest, cause I find my original ideas get lost in the playing and recording, and the song takes on a life of itself, which is fine, but only to an extent.

 

 

You do have a system, no system. :poke:

[Lee Knight]

Construct - Geometry . to draw (a figure) fulfilling certain given conditions.

 

or

 

To set in logical order.

 

 

I use an ebb and flow, back and forth method. On one hand, I use intuition and inspiration. I capture as much of that as I can; quickly. That's the stuff. But where things go south, at least in my estimation, is relying completely on those instances. I see a lot of that kind of frustration here on this board. Myself included.

 

So the idea of using a "construct" comes into play. But, I think this is important: if you rely on fulfilling a construct, without an initial "germ" of something sprung from the deep, you're just playing with Legos. It's academic, not art.

 

I'm very much into analyzing other's work I admire. And putting down on paper, in distilled terms, what I've grocked.

 

When that wall comes along, you now have a way of extrapolating your initial germ into a more developed idea. Variations on a theme. It's what all great art is based on...

 

Pure inspiration mixed with refinement and order.

 

I believe some people get put off by the concept of order in art, but it's always there. Whether the artist realizes they've instilled their work with it or not.

 

I plan on analyzing and putting down my analysis of an old favorite of mine for next Friday's influences thread. Play the song, analyze, and share. Might be fun.

 

But for me, that stuff is only good if you're taking your idea, however small it may be, and applying the "construct". The construct derived from another's work, applied to yours. Fun and effective.

 

Purge / refine, purge / refine, purge / refine

 

Funny thing is, once I start refining or constructing my idea, other original ideas willfully flow in the door. As I stated elsewhere, writing helps me to write.

 

Using a construct or map and applying it to pure and original, personal inspiration is powerful.

[blue2blue]

If you're stumped, structure -- doesn't have to be any particular structure but it should work for what you're doing -- can help guide you.

 

Look if you were making a man or woman from and you had a bunch of organs to hook up and put together, wouldn't you start by assembling the skeleton so you'd have something to hang it all from?

[davesacre]

I start by experimenting with sounds and notes until I hear something interesting. Then I record it. Then I work in the other instruments and record until I think it sounds good. There. I have 12 seconds of music. Then I decide if it should be a verse, chorus, bridge or something else. Then I get stuck. I'm still working on this part and starting to collaborate with friends. At this point I'm just working with one other friend, but am working on a website to share ideas with other friends. We'll see how this works.

[wheatzz]

here is one of mine: don't ever dear look up for a rhyming word to keep a ryhme. or em soemthin like that