Members Matximus Posted May 18, 2011 Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 Stairway? Prog-Rock? Seriously? Our defense of long-winded musical masterbation comes down to the guys who took Rock music from good times & Chuck Berry to Flute Solos and lyrics about Mordor & Gollum? It's like... I don't know... citing the Nazi's to illustrate the merits of thorough and efficient government bureaucracy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2011 Are you saying Led Zepplin are Nazis?!?!??!? Take that BACK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted May 18, 2011 Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 the guys who took Rock music from good times & Chuck Berry to Flute Solos and lyrics about Mordor & Gollum? Yeah, that sounds like the Beach Boys to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted May 18, 2011 Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 That David Lee Roth Song is in my Stairway file. And Here's the thing about Brian Wilson: Every one of his Melodies was good enough to be the chorus. If you can write melodies as sweet as Brian Wilson - and have access the the best studio musicians and recording equipment money can buy - than, by all means, open her up a little bit. However: Two minutes of ear-jarring, melodically flatlined vamping is not a decision that Brian Wilson would sign off on. Brian Wilson would say- Uhm, come into my sandbox for a second I need to tell you something: MOVE THE BEST PART OF THE DAMN SONG UP FRONT! Cause he's, you know, kinda famous for that approach and wraping things sweet and fast...... I Get Around... Wouldn't it Be Nice... Surfin USA... Little Deuce Coupe... yadda yadda yadda. Do yourself a favor if you never have. Pick up a guitar. Work through I Get Around. That right there is a masterclass in pop songwriting - I don't know how he managed to put that song together like that. I think people don't try to write like that anymore in the pop/rock vein because they're too scared. It's too tough, too tight. It takes too much courage to try and think up something that good and efficient. Make you sandbox crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2011 That David Lee Roth Song is in my Stairway file. And Here's the thing about Brian Wilson: Every one of his Melodies was good enough to be the chorus. If you can write melodies as sweet as Brian Wilson - and have access the the best studio musicians and recording equipment money can buy - than, by all means, open her up a little bit. However: Two minutes of ear-jarring, melodically flatlined vamping is not a decision that Brian Wilson would sign off on. Brian Wilson would say- Uhm, come into my sandbox for a second I need to tell you something: MOVE THE BEST PART OF THE DAMN SONG UP FRONT! Cause he's, you know, kinda famous for that approach and wraping things sweet and fast...... I Get Around... Wouldn't it Be Nice... Surfin USA... Little Deuce Coupe... yadda yadda yadda. Do yourself a favor if you never have. Pick up a guitar. Work through I Get Around. That right there is a masterclass in pop songwriting - I don't know how he managed to put that song together like that. I think people don't try to write like that anymore in the pop/rock vein because they're too scared. It's too tough, too tight. It takes too much courage to try and think up something that good and efficient. Make you sandbox crazy. I gotta say, I absolutely agree with you. Slow starts are great when you're starting with GREAT "slow stuff". It's that simple. You've got to grab. There is no warming up. Maybe ramping up from really good to great. But not from yawn to awake. It'll go from yawn to... click. BTW, sorry to the OP for jacking your thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted May 18, 2011 Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 Yeah. Sorry OT. I do really dig the chorus part of that guy's song. I mean, I think it's really good. It took me a while to shake loose and frontload songs early because my frame of reference, musically, is late 80s and 90s rock. That's what I grew up on and first learned to play. I mean, Guns n Roses with that insane intro on Welcome to the Jungle. Building it slow and long and fierce and heavy. I can't argue with that intro. It's like arguing with Mt. Everest to stop being so chilly and intimidating. But it took me a while to realize that unless you have their kinda supersonic capabilities or an endless bagga hooks like Master Wilson - best to take the rare decent hook God hands out to mere mortals and run with that early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted May 18, 2011 Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 Here's the thing about Brian Wilson: Every one of his Melodies was good enough to be the chorus. If you can write melodies as sweet as Brian Wilson - and have access the the best studio musicians and recording equipment money can buy - than, by all means, open her up a little bit. However: Two minutes of ear-jarring, melodically flatlined vamping is not a decision that Brian Wilson would sign off on. Brian Wilson would say- Uhm, come into my sandbox for a second I need to tell you something: MOVE THE BEST PART OF THE DAMN SONG UP FRONT! Yes, but he very clearly didn't do that on "California Girls." He starts the tune with a kind of vapid "warm-up" exercise. Why? I would say it's probably because he wanted to differentiate this particular tune from the Beach Boys' previous records, and also to set it apart from what else was happening on AM radio at the time. Plus, he probably felt there would be a bigger payoff for those soaring harmony vocals that come in on "I wish they all could be California girls..." if he didn't immediately show his hole card, or "move the best part of the damn song up front." And it works much better than if he had followed the advice you've put in his mouth. I would also argue that not "every single one of his melodies was good enough to be the chorus." Certainly he had that gift probably more than any other pop songwriter of his era (or perhaps, any era), but what you're saying simply does not hold true overall. Some of my favorite Brian Wilson songs have a meandering feel to them; they aren't all hooks and choruses. You have a tendency, Max, to make grand, black-and-white pronouncements as if everything you believe about songwriting is absolute truth. It's not. There are gray areas that can and should also be explored. In fact, when Brian Wilson wrote "I Get Around" he broke a number of hard-and-fast rules about how pop songs should be written, arranged, produced, and recorded. The hook in "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" (from Pet Sounds) doesn't come in until 00:45. And one of my favorite Beach Boys songs -- "Wonderful" -- has no discernible hook at all. Yet in most of his songs, there are at least two or three hooks happening at once! "Good Vibrations" is a perfect example. And again, that's a song that broke all the rules of songwriting and record-producing. The point is that sometimes it's valid to engage in a little aural foreplay (which is what Brian did on "California Girls") and sometimes it's better to hit the listener with an unbelievability great hook (if you can write one) right out of the gate like on "Good Vibrations," where he has 4 hooks going at once. And you still haven't explained Roy Orbison's talent, one where he often holds the best part of the song till the very last note. And he does it in such a way that when the listener finally arrives at that last note with him, it's a {censored}ing-unbelievable payoff. There are more things in heaven and earth, Matximus, than are dreamt off in your philosophy. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2011 There are more things in heaven and earth, Matximus, than are dreamt off in your philosophy. LCK I find that very, very hard to believe... But you know... beauty is formed from ill informed minds. My best thoughts arose when I was 15... seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SrMeowMeow Posted May 18, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 No worries, this discussion has been great. I plan on doing a lot of work on this today; hopefully I can have something new for you guys soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2011 Work is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted May 19, 2011 Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Max, rereading my post it comes off as dismissive of your point, which I suppose was somewhat my intent, thought not quite as forceful. I enjoy reading your posts and respect your opinion a good deal. Every piece of feedback you've offered on my querries has been utilized in some manner, and your commentary on songwriting in general is fascinating. But I still don't agree that songs need to be done by the two minute mark. For better or for worse, the songs that grab me are those epic numbers that absorb me in the open and then enfold before me like a painted audio canvass. I love feeling completely drained at the end of it all, feeling like I just went on a journey of some sort. Seeing as the Beatles are my favorite band, I certainly see the value in a nice "quickie" of a song. As a songwriter, I lament my inability to be so complete and brief simultaneously. But those grand numbers are what really speak to me and I don't see a problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SrMeowMeow Posted May 19, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Okay. So when I posted the original recording I was so excited by the ideas that I didn't realize how awful it sounded. So here's a much tighter version. This one's actually, like, a song. Just over two minutes, much better sound quality...tell me what you think. Still plenty of work to be done, and I feel like the chorus is missing some major element. I'm also not sure about the lead over the final chorus, although I like the end of it. Stay brutal! http://soundcloud.com/oscar-heller/keep-on-keepin-on-new Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted May 19, 2011 Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Broken link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urca Posted May 19, 2011 Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 You need to work a line about disgruntled puppeteers in there somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SrMeowMeow Posted May 19, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Working link: http://soundcloud.com/oscar-heller/keep-on-keepin-on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 19, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2011 Yeah. Nice. Chick backups too? Wow! It feels a lot more consise and to the point. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted May 19, 2011 Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Sounds great. Looking forward to hearing it with some percussion as it lacks that driving component. I also think the vocals could use a little more punch in the chorus. Not a melody thing or a harmony thing, those a great, just more oomph instead of just sort of talking your way through like you do now. Otherwise you're really on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted May 19, 2011 Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Working link: http://soundcloud.com/oscar-heller/keep-on-keepin-on I think you need a solo section and a 3rd verse. (If my math is right, each verse is only :30 seconds.) LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted May 19, 2011 Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 Warning: I love this song, and wrote/recorded it in two hours. But I want brutal criticism. There are a couple very minor tweaks to the lyrics already that are not in the recording. YouTube link to the (very rough one take demo) recording: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqc2xMgDznY&feature=related Lyrics: another streetlit corner another crumpled dollar I played it cool to stay awake you stopped to take a picture your smile a rare elixir made me forget the changes I thought I knew the song by heart you took a new direction left at the intersection left me to founder in your wake ships pass me every evening small smiles, heavy meaning is this a new beginning or did it end before the start it just goes to show I gotta know chorus: so you touch me and you tease me keep on keepin' on would you love me would you leave me keep on keepin' on would you hurt me would you free me keep on keepin' on now ev'ry night's eventful each second heaven sent will you return to see the crime? this crush is heavy weather storm's approaching, brace forever red sky at every sunset avenues full of lookalikes it just goes to show I gotta know chorus I don't regret a single thing these moments feed me when I sing requited love's a waste of time who needs a steady rhythm with high adventure in him this street's the final jungle these words machetes from the mic it just goes to show who wants to know the ending chorus x2 Some good bits here, some fun rhymes and cleverness -- and thank you for not using flounder for founder. In fact, though, I was concerned when we jumped from the very concrete description of the street to the maritime metaphor, but I liked how you pivoted to the Evangelinic 'ships passing in the night' thing, at any rate. However... I couldn't figure out how we got from the image of the girl (assumed it was a girl, but don't want to be presumptuous) slipping off in the other direction to the chorus, where the singer and she seem to have gotten together. And, then, later in the song, I'm sort of led to think that they didn't after all. And I'm feeling like maybe some explanation might be required there to ease the cognitive dissonance. Also, I should warn that I like my pop songs on the short side, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt when I say, it felt long. (And, looking back at the YT page, I see it was, by my way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SrMeowMeow Posted May 19, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2011 I think you need a solo section and a 3rd verse. (If my math is right, each verse is only :30 seconds.)LCK You think it needs a solo section? I try to curb my natural tendencies towards extra guitar stuff. But it will definitely need another verse or something if I speed up the tempo as planned. It's already barely two minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 19, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2011 Heh...no, that's just me singing. Really? That's great. You sound like another person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted May 20, 2011 Members Share Posted May 20, 2011 Sounds great - much improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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