Members DeathMonkey Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 So much pwn in one post... I'm glad you like it, but it isn't pwn at all, just a perspective, hopefully a valuable one I do love you guys, and I want you to be happy. We just seem to throw so many babies out with our bathwater, and vote against our own interests in the name of team partisanship and personal attachments. It's frustrating, and honestly, I do a terrible job at not being totally frustrated all the time. So I hope my more reasonable posts are a welcome change every now and then from my usual rage filled ranting. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 The majority of FAIL for US imo is the big changes in parenting, responsibility and self discipline. The whiners of the take from them and give to me come from from decades of persons without self merit looking for alternatives in numbers. We spoiled and catered the {censored} out of kids in the burbs. So what else is there for them to do but want all their lives. They need things, so credit is where that comes in to play. How many of those now adults are buried in {censored}ing debt. No I do not BLAME the companies that dangle a stick with buy now, pay up the ass later. I look at the person in their own lack of discipline and self control to say, I should save for that. We spoiled the school and education system by allowing political ideology above the basic academics and structured environment. We curved grades, we made thing easier so not to have a kid "have to fail" when no real effort was put in by them in the first place. Kids can't balance a checkbook when the graduate. Parents wonder why kids still live at home in their 30's? Well, cuz you let them. Door , meet ass and GTFO and grow up! In more ways I think progress as it is has {censored}ed us all. Consumerism drove the majority of people away from US products for how many decades. And we wonder why there are no jobs? Biting the hand that feeds you. I don't want to work in that dirty factory. Said that for decades. Factories moved. Now there is no plan B for kids. Nobody plays the way Fordism's business plan is representative of. When we all decided global competition was ok, and we will consume those goods, we put a lot of people out of work. We cast their spell of doom for them. They just make the stuff. Business has to meet goals set by investors and many are outside investors and groups. They call the shots. You fail, they don't invest. We used US property and other assets to secure debts owed to foreign investors and govts. To get things straight is going to take probably as many decades. We don't need Glenn Beck or Olbermann to tell us what we need. We need to use common sense and respect for others around us. {censored} the more me {censored}, that always brings society down to the lowest common denominator. That is our biggest problem of failure and much more reason for our dependency on other entities to help us think, and help us manage our own lives. The only ones accountable are ourselves for both actions and inaction. Fairness is one thing, but that is stretched beyond what is reasonable. What is fair to one party is as unfair to the other. Take becomes more than give, and societies are not built around one group. All have to participate, think, and compromise their individual ideology for the sake of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluestarramp Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 You guys are {censored}ing boring.Where's HT and some big tits when you need 'em.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeathMonkey Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 HKS, you're not wrong. People will blame Libruls, but truth be told, Conservative parents are just as bad. As a former childcare professional, I can tell you it has more to do with whinging Boomer parents of all stripes who wanted to be the friend to their kids that their post-War stoic, emotionless smoking alcoholic parents weren't to them. Of course, the other half just imitate their parents and beat the {censored} out of their kids, creating sociopathic rapists and bed-wetting serial killers. Either way, kids learn {censored} all about being real human beings with realistic self images and REAL self esteem built on actual accomplishment. Dude, if everyone gets a {censored}ing trophy, no one might as well get a trophy. Man, I'll high five a kid for kicking the ball three feet and getting beaned on his way to first base in kickball, but I'm not going to tell him he should join the Olympic mother{censored}ing kickball team. I just feel bad for kids and people in their 20's. They haven't been given any chance to succeed, and just enter new situations like deer in headlights. Hey, don't make em spend all their time in the shallow end, and don't throw em off the deep end. Teach em to mother{censored}ing swim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 I wouldn't blame either side. I think it starts with parental coddling and buying them everything. Parents not asking Johnny "why did you get beat up?" Did you say anything to provoke it? Well if they did, you got what was coming to you. Nope, they call the school and suspend the kid for sticking up for himself. Then Johnny goes back and says haa ha haa haaa ha. What did he learn? He can get away with {censored} since the bigger of the problem was the reaction. I see 12 year olds tell their parents to {censored} off. It starts when these kids are very young. One, they are ignored, or they have no support structure. Parents look for the school (another entity) to provide that. Had a neighbor lady say "I can't take these 3 year olds". Well, get a {censored}ing life and discipline his ass. You don't make a 3 year old feel like HE is the authority figure. Hell, we have parents that will get the point of no return and try to kill their kids. Can't swat their hands, or ass. So I drowned them in the lake. WTF! People baby this {censored} too much. Mommy, Jimmy has a laptop and cel phone and he's in 5th grade. Okay Jimmy, let me get my credit card. I love you Mommy. Mom says no, and the kid pitches a fit for as long as it takes. Instead of Mommy saying NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! We blame education system. Education system fail and they ask for more $ from tax payers. What is resolved? Nothing. A new levy. Did the grades improve? I went to drop something off at my son's High School. The teacher was trying to get some order in the class. I waited outside the hall for 15 minutes until they settled the {censored} down to where she could say open your books. She gave at least 6 threats to one kid she would send him to the office. I overheard, yeah, so what. Couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher these days. Their hands are tied and half the students are unruly. That kid gets his first job. Doesn't like the job and starts {censored}. Kids stealing from registers all the time. Kids getting fired at grocery stores for taking a can of soda. "But I was thirsty and the soda looked good." Did you think to pay for it? No, I work here. WTF is that? Happens continuously. Where did all that come from? Bad parenting 99% of the time. Giving in, and not creating a merit program for their kids. Everyone gets a trophy is total {censored}ing BS. Billy hit 20 home runs, was the best defensive player and he gets the same trophy as the kid that struck out. Sorry kid, this game was not meant for you. Either practice, or not play. Sure there are reasons, but damn, you don't get paid in the real world for lack of performance! Your Boss usually earns more than you do. He's also responsible for more than just you. Why should you be entitled to the same pay? The everybody gets a trophy sets a bad example for earning and merit rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dropsix Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 See what happens when you take Glenn Beck out of a discussion? You get common sense and a discussion worth having TBH, I'm proud of you {censored}ers for not instantly defaulting to playing red vs blue in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 See what happens when you take Glenn Beck out of a discussion? You get common sense and a discussion worth having TBH, I'm proud of you {censored}ers for not instantly defaulting to playing red vs blue in this thread. I've heard some of all of these opinion entertainment providers. Some small part of what Beck has said make sense when it comes to civil responsibility. I've heard objective things from Olbermann. Some makes no sense, so I just turn off the set when any of these guys are on. To me, most of what they argue does nothing in terms of a solution to anything. Olbermann spends his time playing armchair QB against his competition. They don't offer anything. Red VS Blue is more of case to fuel the division we all have. I firmly believe most of us are a little of both conservative and liberal in our thinking. Most of which depends on the situation we observe or our handling of it. Too many think $ solves all problems. It doesn't and it never will. You can be filthy rich and {censored} over people all you want. You can be no better than the poor guy who helps his neighbors. The $ doesn't make you anything. If you think it's cool all this {censored} is cheap and you can have things, well great. You just contribute more reason for a Co not to build in the US. You have {censored}ed yourself and your future family out of any chance for an industry related job. They better like the fast food and retail businesses. Soon that will be all that is left to be "made" here. The service commodity will also be a thing of the past as more items become disposable. It goes around in a cycle. We treat things as employers treat people.. disposable. Now that cycle is what goes around comes around. We didn't care about the jobs of US workers. No, {censored} them, they charge too much. Now the jobs are scarce. Those people have become disposable and now have to look back at tax $ of others to assist them in economic crisis. So whose fault is it? 40 years of wanting disposable things, and we all became just as disposable in the consumer's mind. We'll let Johnny scrape his vegetables and pot roast in the trash cuz he didn't want it and threw a fit. Instead we'll make him something else like a cheeseburger. Then Johnny grows up has heart and obesity issues we all have to pay for. Should have made lil Johnny eat his broccoli or green beans. Now Johnny at 50 yrs old has just cost the system a ton of money for habits that started when he was 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdMan57 Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 I wish that Fox News gave the show to Jeff Beck. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBecker Posted October 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 I think that blaming the poor for lacking resilience is a convenient way of individualizing problems which are structural. While not everyone who faces structural challenges has poor human development outcomes-- health, family stability, psychological pressures, educational attainment, and wealth-- there are structures in place which severely limit the poor's ability to lift itself out of generational and extreme poverty as well as provide opportunity for their children to improve upon their condition. One only has to look at the growing poverty rates and the high poverty rate of children in the United States relative to other industrialized nations, coupled with educational attainment, health, and social mobility to see that the United States is not providing a system in which anyone has the opportunity to flourish. I am not saying that bad parenting isn't an issue just the same as I would not claim that bad parenting is an outcome that occurs in isolation of other social problems. What I am saying is that the rhetoric which has been catapulted to the mainstream by Reagan, that the poor are poor due to laziness and immorality, is harming our country, working class and poor alike. I have a ton to say on the education system, but I'm not quite sure what HK is saying other than we spend too much on education. Also, I think the other problem HK is alluding to stems from our inability to recognize the value of long-term, culture-wide benefits. We value only what helps us as individuals now, and lose site of the incentives which exist to better our community, our nation, and our world as well as things which help the world tomorrow instead of today. If we had a more complete view on incentives, our definition of "rational actors" would be expanded and we all would benefit. "The tide that lifts all boats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DirtyBird Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well valuing the individual is an essential part of western culture. Our concept of individual liberty and self-reliance are deeply intertwined into American culture from way, way back. It's just yet another double-edged sword. You can shift to a more collective direction, but that generally leads to less individual liberty and to nationalism/socialism/marxism/wahtever. Any manner of social/cultural systems that value the collective over hte individual. This was pretty much how the Nazis thought. Nazi ideology basically said that if you weren't busting your ass for the collective, you were useless. Not saying that collectivism is inherently evil, but I'm saying it has its drawbacks. And Naziism/Socialism/Marxism/Communism/Progressivism are all different takes on it, and I'm not lumping them into one group, just saying that's one thing they have in common. Capitalism and democracy emphasizes individual liberties and rights, and there's a cost to that. Can we work around it and fix it? I dunno. I hope so, but I hope as we try we don't ruin the good things about what we have. But as we speak the middle class is shrinking and the recession is hitting everyone fairly hard. And yet we as a nation are more collectivist in our policies today than we ever were in the past. I'm not sure the decline of individual liberty and prosperity isnt somehow related to that, but when it comes to systems as complex as these, even the most well-informed person can be entirely wrong. But... if there was ever a time to convince people to give up their individuality, this is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBecker Posted October 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well valuing the individual is an essential part of western culture. Our concept of individual liberty and self-reliance are deeply intertwined into American culture from way, way back. It's just yet another double-edged sword. Capitalism and democracy emphasizes individual liberties and rights, and there's a cost to that. Can we work around it and fix it? I dunno. I hope so, but I hope as we try we don't ruin the good things about what we have. But as we speak the middle class is shrinking and the recession is hitting everyone fairly hard. If there was ever a time to convince people to give up their individuality, this is it. First of all, don't ruin my thread by invoking Godwin's. That's just not fair. Second, pure individualism is not a requirement of either democracy nor capitalism, nor is valuing collective incentives an attack on individual liberties or rights. This is precisely where populist messages fail (note, this is not unique to the West nor is it unique to America, it's a feature of populism, far as I can tell, that crosses borders and time). What I am talking about is recognizing when structural elements exist which create a system which is inherently biased to some people and some benefits, but closes out many people and devalues things that should be viewed as incentives. As a nation, we've devalued and lost sense of the benefits of having a more just society, a system of equal opportunity, and creating a better world. We wanted to be a light-unto-the-nations (to steal a Jewish phrase), but only when creating a better world and a better country meant that we as individuals can do whatever we want. I think that capitalisms failure right now is the lack of understanding positive outcomes which are not purely profit driven and are not purely driven by a short-term scale. For example, Deathmonkey brings up Ford's model. Intrinsic in the "high wages" part is an understanding that there is a major collective incentive (and business incentive) to having employees make a strong, living wage. Our current business models, and political models for that matter, have eliminated the notion of these positive incentives. Just look at the demonization of environmentalism, health care, and education for evidence. This has nothing to do with extending the grasp of the social contract and infringing upon anyone's freedoms or liberties, this has everything to do with recognizing and assigning value to a larger range of goals as well as recognizing when structural impediment exists rather than always blaming individual initiative. Because many of us are so lucky as to be as "free" as we are, we forget that not everyone can move unconstrained within our system because their conditions do not afford them the same access to opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeathMonkey Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 And yet we as a nation are more collectivist in our policies today than we ever were in the past. I'm not sure the decline of individual liberty and prosperity isnt somehow related to that, but when it comes to systems as complex as these, even the most well-informed person can be entirely wrong. But... if there was ever a time to convince people to give up their individuality, this is it. I would have to see some examples of this. I would posit that we are far less collectivist. Infrastructure upkeep and civic works are waaaay down, just to point at an area that is not seen as collectivist, but is exactly the type of project that shows how collective spending benefits the Nation - not just entitlements and social safety nets. But we spend more on corporate welfare - $94 Billion - than we do on the core programs - Head Start, AFDC, low income housing, food stamps, etc - that make up what we consider to be "welfare". I think it's exactly people like Beck that "poison the well" about what we do as a group being Authoriatarian/Fascist that blind us to certain truths - the same truths that inform corporatism, i.e. some things are done better using the power of the group. The same reason why NewsCorp and Microsoft can run roughshod over any competition is because they have the power of size, and is why they are terrified of the government wielding that same power. In a theoretical construct, there is nothing inherently evil or flawed about any specific form of government - by itself a collective agreement to follow a prescribed set of mores and laws. If we were all perfect human beings with perfect self control, who always acted in our own enlightened self interest, we could have some of these bright Utopias. But we suck. If people didn't act like spoiled 5 year olds, we could have a better pragmatic case for more freedoms. But if we don't regulate sensibly, then we merely reward those that do the worst {censored} possible. That's just human {censored}ing nature. HKS rants about undisciplined kids, well, that's what we all are, and we have to recognize that. If you want corporations to act like civilized entities, you have to make them. If you want your kid to learn {censored}, you have to teach them. If you want people to behave, you have to make it a better strategy than to not do so. Right now, all this talk of "freedom" is basically support for your freedom to get {censored}ed in the ass by anyone with more power than you. Is it fair that the CEO of Nestle has more access and more of a voice in government than you do? {censored} no, you're both citizens. So why do the rich have more access, more freedom? Why do corporations have more freedom than actual people? Why do insurance companies have the freedom to violate their own terms of service, but you don't have the right to seek redress? That's insane. Think of this: how many people - shareholders, lower execs, middle managers, etc - made money off Enron for the years before they collapsed? And what punishment or incentive do they have not to do exactly the same thing again? We have our scapegoat in Ken Lay, but who else got punished? I've been railing against our investment economy for years. If every dollar removed from our economy is merely used to generate more profit, all that happens is an upward flow like a vacuum. Dollars don't return to spur actual value - merchandise, services, actual products - they just grab their imaginary buddies and fly away. THIS is what we need to fix - our government is a Corporigarchy. Not a democracy. By demonizing any form of collectivism as "socialism/communism", the powerful keep us from banding together and removing their terrible privilege. It's no surprise that ALL of these talking heads work for a major corporation. Personally, think we need to start at the root of the problem. Campaign finance, lobbyist laws, legislative processes (poooooork!) and investment finance reform just to start. And this has to be bipartisan - IMHO, anyone who stands against this basic re-forming of government should be ridden out of town on a rail. We as a Nation have a looooooong history of corruption - historically, Republicans take $$$ from management, Dems take $$$ from Labor. The Labor Unions have been as historically corrupt as any Repulbican corporate scheme. And there is plenty of evidence that this still goes on - again, 8 of the top 15 politicians on the "most corrupt" lists are Dems. The fight for health care reform has shown clearly the agendas of plenty of asshats on both sides. At some point, we have to take our 250+ year Federal Code, which has been pieced together piece by piece, and solidify it, examine it, and streamline it, cutting out pork and antiquated stopgaps and create a modern Code we can follow with integrity for the NEXT 200 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdMan57 Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 It's cool to read the well reasoned and thoughtful discourse going on here.I was waiting for the eventual {censored}storm of insults to insue.I then remembered that this thread was not over on the political forum.Please do carry on. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LordThurisaz Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 Obama panders to {censored}ing communist dictators. {censored} him and his cronies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Say Ocean Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 Obama panders to {censored}ing communist dictators. {censored} him and his cronies. lulz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members esp_207 Posted October 6, 2009 Members Share Posted October 6, 2009 Yeah, this and **1776**'s comments as well. I love it when you guys make sense. Part of the problem is that it takes me the better part of any given morning to wade through the horse{censored} Beck et al have stirred up that night- outrage over Obama's speech to kids, or kids singing some {censored}ing song, or death panels, or school clinics enforcing abortions in school, and then I have to wade through the Progressive debunking and response, then the {censored}ing DumbfuCon response to that to finally get to actual news. I have to sift through 6 social media filters, read upwards of 12-16 blog posts, check AP, Rueters and BBC News, and tromp through Twitter, Digg, and Reddit for relevant opinion and links to primary and secondary sources as well as other blogs, which have more links, check a few Con blogs for perspective, head over to my three political forums to see what the people I trust in such matters are saying, all to find out that no actual progress on the National discourse has been made. That's insane. No wonder very few people are informed, finding the information is a {censored}ing nightmare. If I am short with you lot, it's because I do the work, and yet get embroiled in the same arguments. It's not that some of you are always wrong, it's that these arguments are so ridiculous that they never should have ever started. Every political thread is just a troll attempt. And Glenn is the King of Media Trolls. Hey, Goldmann Sachs doesn't give a {censored} about you, or America. Neither does Wal*Mart, Cigna, or BofA. Glenn Beck doesn't {censored}ing care about you or America, nor does Rush, Ann or Bill. {censored}, Rush is such a petty {censored}wad he wants the country to implode just because he hates "anything he isn't" THAT {censored}ING MUCH. And that's where we are. Cheering because Chicago didn't get the Olympics because it makes Obama look bad. Most opinions I come across are absolute rubbish. Even Progressive ones. As a Progressive, I've had it with most Dems and Obama. While they waffle around trying to be all bipartisan with obstructionists that refuse to support anything that might make "their enemies" look good and therefore validate their agenda, the status quo continues, and corporate America stuffs as much cash into it's ass as it can before we wise up. Every society that has been based on hardline rhetoric or a system based on theoretical ideals has failed. EVERY ONE. Without balance and adaptation, you cannot operate in the real world. Greenspanian "Free Market Economics" is just as rigid and as unrealistic as Marxist Socialism. And they are both doomed. I hear more people do nothing but tout their own Utopian horse{censored} all day - be it the Ron Paul "down wif gubbmint!" people, the "Constitutionalists", the "Freedomtarians", the "Green Party", the touchy-feely self esteem and New Age yuppies, PETA people, entitlement addicted minorities, angry White People, the Teabaggers, Christian and Islamic Radicals - it's all the {censored}ing same to me. Overly simplified, easily quoted constructed bull{censored} that has no {censored}ing bearing on reality. Quoting Laws of Motion will not build you a {censored}ing car. I don't have all the answers, not by a long shot. But man, I'm smart enough to know when we're arguing dumb {censored} just to be arguing. And that, ultimately, is Glenn Becks goal. Just as it is here, to be the snarkiest kid on the block, with extreeeeeme statements and smart ass opinions - hey, I love ToS and Ron Burgandy too, but that {censored} just isn't {censored}ing funny anymore. Just as that garbage has killed this forum, Glenn, who has to outcrazy Rush and Coulter, and then gets chased down by Hannity, while Maddow and Olbermann get rich getting all finger pointy (tho Maddow rules, you gotta gimme that), Ole Glenn has done the same thing to political discourse in America. Because some {censored}ing dip{censored} watches 3 hours of Fox (or MSNBC, or really, any single news outlet) and thinks they know more than someone who DOES THE WORK. I may be a pretentious windbag, but I {censored}ing GUARANTEE YOU this would be a better world if more people listened to me than Glenn "Hahaha I think your miscarriage is funny!" Beck. And despite all that, you still only get 1 vote just like the most uneducated, misinformed scrub in the country who heard a sound bite on the ride to the polls. Doesn't that ever frustrate you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mickaroony Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 Well valuing the individual is an essential part of western culture. Our concept of individual liberty and self-reliance are deeply intertwined into American culture from way, way back. It's just yet another double-edged sword. You can shift to a more collective direction, but that generally leads to less individual liberty and to nationalism/socialism/marxism/wahtever. Any manner of social/cultural systems that value the collective over hte individual. This was pretty much how the Nazis thought. Nazi ideology basically said that if you weren't busting your ass for the collective, you were useless. Not saying that collectivism is inherently evil, but I'm saying it has its drawbacks. And Naziism/Socialism/Marxism/Communism/Progressivism are all different takes on it, and I'm not lumping them into one group, just saying that's one thing they have in common.Capitalism and democracy emphasizes individual liberties and rights, and there's a cost to that. Can we work around it and fix it? I dunno. I hope so, but I hope as we try we don't ruin the good things about what we have. But as we speak the middle class is shrinking and the recession is hitting everyone fairly hard. And yet we as a nation are more collectivist in our policies today than we ever were in the past. I'm not sure the decline of individual liberty and prosperity isnt somehow related to that, but when it comes to systems as complex as these, even the most well-informed person can be entirely wrong. But... if there was ever a time to convince people to give up their individuality, this is it. What a load of crap. Individual liberties and rights.....please. What you really mean is we shouldn't have to pay tax. That's what all the conservative propaganda comes down to when you strip away the bull{censored}. Now you're trying to blame the shinking of the middle class on "collectivist policies" give me a freaking break. The mess you're in right now was caused by people doing exactly what they wanted to do without any regard for anyone else - if you can show me some proof that it was increased collectivism that caused the current financial situation i'd love to see it. Try living in a country like Australia for a while, it might open that very narrow view of yours. Living in the USA sure opened mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ***1776*** Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 What a load of crap. Individual liberties and rights.....please. What you really mean is we shouldn't have to pay tax. That's what all the conservative propaganda comes down to when you strip away the bull{censored}. Now you're trying to blame the shinking of the middle class on "collectivist policies" give me a freaking break. The mess you're in right now was caused by people doing exactly what they wanted to do without any regard for anyone else - if you can show me some proof that it was increased collectivism that caused the current financial situation i'd love to see it. Try living in a country like Australia for a while, it might open that very narrow view of yours. Living in the USA sure opened mine. What are you trying to say? No offense but your a rambling a bit - So a 'housing bubble' (thus starting the credit crunch) was caused by conservative propoganda and no regard for others? do u think that those policies ALSO CREATED WEALTH/PROSPERITY? Individual rights and liberties are VERY important to me as a American - if its not 2 you and your country 5000+ miles away thats fine but i dont think its wise to attack citizens who do I made the point before and its valid - I think if u have 2 poor people and both are born into poor situations - one born under a capitalistic society and the other socialist i believe the person born under capitalism & with a open society and with opportunites has a better chance to get out from being poor than the other or where polices are of "wealth redistribution' I dont think thats a stretch at all, in fact i think its true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBecker Posted October 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 I made the point before and its valid - I think if u have 2 poor people and both are born into poor situations - one born under a capitalistic society and the other socialist i believe the person born under capitalism & with a open society and with opportunites has a better chance to get out from being poor than the other or where polices are of "wealth redistribution'I dont think thats a stretch at all, in fact i think its true. Sociology and human development called-- they say you should look at the conclusion of research on social mobility and positive development outcomes in social democracies versus the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dropsix Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 I think someone needs to go back to PP. This is a discussion for adults/those who don't subscribe to red vs blue so far. Lets try and keep it that way plz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marshallnoise Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 I do see what you're saying, and you do have a point - The struggle is between the extremism of the social ideal of total balance, and the extremism of the economic ideal of maximum profit. One side posits that the purpose of a company is to provide goods, services, and jobs, and one says that companies exist only to extract maximum profit. Personally, I'm a Fordist - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dropsix Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 I agree to this, so long as satisfying the consumer is numero uno. I too wish that corporations would back off the mantra that shareholders are the number one priority. I went through management school in college, believe me when I say that shareholder priority is their fighting call. I never understood that I would never run a business in that manner either. I haven't had a chance to read below what I quoted, but for once, up to this point, I agree with you. +23298579438574363408230547398663409876436 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBecker Posted October 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 A recent interview question used by a top consulting firm that a friend of mine applied to asked what advice should be given to a health insurance company that is losing money because too many elderly patients are being referred to cardiology specialists for necessary, but expensive care. The "correct" answer was to offer doctors a $100,000 bonus for significantly lowering their referral rate and to produce documentation which demonstrated why going to see a specialist was actually a bad idea in a number of scenarios (whether research supported this or not). That may be an insurance example, but it's a great example of dedication to profit and shareholders losing sight of what is in the interest of the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdMan57 Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 lulz DOH!!! [ sigh... ] Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kidbs Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 uh...what's not mainstream about fox news? i also seem to remember some people bitching about katie couric being "too tough" on sarah palin... everybody has an agenda of some sort, and you can't eliminate that. if you take something that is said by a "pundit" at face value, you should be sterilized to prevent further deterioration of our gene pool. psycho neocons LOVE fox news because it validates them, just like psycho liberals LOVE MSNBC because it validates them. if you REALLY want to know what's going on in washington, watch C-span MSNBC may have some leftist favoritism but it's not nearly as out of control as Fox by a long shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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