Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 You're completely missing the point.Speakers and speaker cabinets are the big factor when concerned with overall volume.Are Crate seriously rating their SS gear at 10% THD? Maybe that's why they sound {censored}. 10% yes. And I would agree most of them sound like {censored}. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dparr Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 I don't think that all solid state amps are created equal as far as real world loudness and watts go. When I put my old ss 100 watt Gibson Lab Series L5 up against my buddies 100 watt ss Marshall amp the Lab blows the Marshall away. Not even close! I guess all depends on how the amp manufacturer chooses to measure "wattage". I would say that the Lab is close to as loud as most 100 watt tube amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 You're completely missing the point.Speakers and speaker cabinets are the big factor when concerned with overall volume.Are Crate seriously rating their SS gear at 10% THD? Maybe that's why they sound {censored}. I know cabs and speaks make alot of factors. I'll put it this way when everybody in the room seems to "think" the 30w tube amp is louder than the 100w Crate amp whos cares about science at this point. If you and others think its louder and thats what your after then.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 I don't think that all solid state amps are created equal as far as real world loudness and watts go.When I put my old ss 100 watt Gibson Lab Series L5 up against my buddies 100 watt ss Marshall amp the Lab blows the Marshall away.Not even close! I guess all depends on how the amp manufacturer chooses to measure "wattage".I would say that the Lab is close to as loud as most 100 watt tube amps. Another example is my cheap 500w Sony home stereo vs. my old 1991 Kenwood 100w amp. Ones double the volume alright, bet science won't get it right though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PaoloJM Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 I know cabs and speaks make alot of factors. I'll put it this way when everybody in the room seems to "think" the 30w tube amp is louder than the 100w Crate amp whos cares about science at this point. If you and others think its louder and thats what your after then.................. Again, you're reading comprehension is letting you down.We've already covered that, and I agree that a watt is a watt, no matter whether is SS or tube. Read back through my posts. The question here is about volume and my point is that speaker type and cabinet construction are directly related to volume in a big way.Amplifier wattage is only partially related, and not really relevant when considering volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 When your looking at wattage..lets say you had a 100w solid state amp sitting next to a 5w Class A tube amp. Which would be louder? Well if the 5w is just as loud or louder thats one cheap ass 100w amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 That's correct: 100 watts is twice as loud as 10 watts is twice as loud at 1 watt....and as long as it's clean, it doesn't matter if it's tube or SS, Class A, AB, D, or H. Sorta. The logarithmic "Rule of 10" is signal volume in relation to signal voltage, not output wattage. But the two are interrelated. Throwing the paper math out the window, most audio/hi-fi companies usually use the rough, rounded-off guide based more on "5" to assume "real world" situations...they break down doubling of volume as 1 watt>>5 watts>>20 watts>>100 watts>>... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Sorta.The logarithmic "Rule of 10" is signal volume in relation to signal voltage, not output wattage. But the two are interrelated.Throwing the paper math out the window, most audio/hi-fi companies usually use the rough, rounded-off guide based more on "5" to assume "real world" situations...they break down doubling of volume as 1 watt>>5 watts>>20 watts>>100 watts>>... I think this guy will make more sense of it than any of us so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PaoloJM Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think this guy will make more sense of it than any of us so far. You've made none whatsoever so what qualifies you to make that statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dparr Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Again, you're reading comprehension is letting you down.We've already covered that, and I agree that a watt is a watt, no matter whether is SS or tube. Read back through my posts.The question here is about volume and my point is that speaker type and cabinet construction are directly related to volume in a big way.Amplifier wattage is only partially related, and not really relevant when considering volume. Not completely true. All amp manufacturers do not measure a "watt" the same way. It would make things much easier if they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 You've made none whatsoever so what qualifies you to make that statement? Two examples i can think of in this post is not explained by your science at all. So now you start talking shit bout speakers in the chain, uh. I agree you know more bout it but still you are making no sense to the question when it comes to explaining real world volume. Speakers? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members peavey_impact Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Two examples i can think of in this post is not explained by your science at all. So now you start talking {censored} bout speakers in the chain, uh. I agree you know more bout it but still you are making no sense to the question when it comes to explaining real world volume. Speakers? Really? Yes, speaker sensitivity plays a huge role in your overall loudness....some of them are drastically different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 When your looking at wattage.. lets say you had a 100w solid state amp sitting next to a 5w Class A tube amp. Which would be louder? Speakers? Really? Thats your angle too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PaoloJM Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Two examples i can think of in this post is not explained by your science at all. So now you start talking {censored} bout speakers in the chain, uh. I agree you know more bout it but still you are making no sense to the question when it comes to explaining real world volume. Speakers? Really? Ok, let me explain it in simple terms.Speakers create the volume. They turn electrical power into mechanical motion, and in doing so create what we call volume.Some speakers are more efficient than others. Some speakers are capable of creating far more mechanical motion with the exact same amount of power.Some speaker cabinets are better constructed to assist speakers in creating volume.This is the biggest factor in creating volume or SPL. For volume the specific frequency response of the speaker cabinet is also a major factor, as the human is far more sensitive to certain frequencies than others. It appears to be news to you so I'll state it clearly: an amplifier requires speakers to make any sound at all.Amplifiers create output power, speaker transform that into volume, both are essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tech21man Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 dBs coming from a speaker have only a passing relation to wattage from an amplifier.It'd like saying a cars acceleration is down to it's engine capacity. There are many more factors involved.A watt is a watt, SS or tube. Tube power distort and frequently push out more wattage, but this is no longer a clean signal (forget about preamps for this purpose, wattage relates to power amps).dBs is much more related to speaker efficiency and cabinet construction.With the same levels of power amp THD, both will be exactly the wattage output. Using the exact same speaker cabinet and speakers they will be the exact same volume. That is the only comparison worth discussing as it's the only one that actually compares the two on a level playing field. Well said. That is exactly why though I sense tube amps as "monstrously loud" regarding distortion I can't say the same regarding clean sounds. I have found that less than 100 watts usually means no real headroom for clean sounds on open air gigs where the drummer pounds as loud as he can. But that is my observation... Still I would like to commend that it is fairly wrong to judge amps through their "own" cabinets. Solid state combos to be exact, as they usually have worse cabinets and more inefficient speakers by defaults. Which means that if a tube amp pushes a +5 db more sensitive speaker game is over for the solid state amp before we begin to analyze why or distortion. Also, you have to take into account that though tube amps put out the same wattage regardless of load (4,8 or 16 ohm) a solid state amp will put out maximum power (and have the most trouble driving it) the less the ohms. Which means that a rocktron velocity 100 will only put out 37,5 watts per side through a 16ohm marshall 4x12 whereas through a 4 ohm cabinet it will put out a much bigger number per side (70 or 90 watts? can't remember: ideally and not in reality it should be A watts in 16 ohm, 2A watts in 8ohm, 4A watts in 4ohm). The randall V2/T2 put out 500 watts for a 2 ohm load (2 4x12 wired in parallel). For a single 16ohm cab they put out 280 watts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Not completely true.All amp manufacturers do not measure a "watt" the same way.It would make things much easier if they did. My guess is you know your {censored} pretty good. Heres what i know: sometimes a 20w amp is louder than a 100w amp when everything else in the chain is the same. I would ask you to explain more on that but I wont cause i know I would'nt want to do that either. As far as some other responses go well I'll just start swapn speakers till i get it right! wtf else is left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tech21man Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 When comparing an equal amount of wattage, absolutely.100w is 100w and it doesn't really matter where it comes from.The difference is that a Class H amp is more efficient, meaning that it uses less power from the outlet to generate that 100 watts.Where a 100 watt tube amp might use 400 watts to create 100, the Class H amp might only use 200.Actually, tube amps have pretty high THD (I think that most tube amps are rated around 5%, whereas SS amps are usually less than 1%).The difference is in how your ears perceive the sound. When you hear 5-10% THD in a tube amp as "warmth" and "fatness", the same level of THD in a SS amp will sound shrill, farty, and horrible. Yep. Remember that for hi-fi purposes, THD about 0,01 is acceptable, above that usually is not. Now go see how much of a rating does a 4x6L6 hi-fi tube amp usually has. By the way, when you play loud through your guitar amp, you get an erection the more your amp distorts but as sixtonoize said that is not the rule for ss amps. You might want to use the high wattage of a ss amp to actually not reach its limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PaoloJM Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 My guess is you know your {censored} pretty good. Heres what i know: sometimes a 20w amp is louder than a 100w amp when everything else in the chain is the same. I would ask you to explain more on that but I wont cause i know I would'nt want to do that either. As far as some other responses go well I'll just start swapn speakers till i get it right! wtf else is left? You have neither knowledge nor the ability to obtain knowledge. Do you care to comment on your new found realisation that it's actually the speaker that make the noise, and that that therefore they may be critical?It's actually the answer to that little conundrum that's bothering you so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bdubbs Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Speakers make a huge difference. Check the volume difference between a V30 and a G12T75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 You have neither knowledge nor the ability to obtain knowledge.Do you care to comment on your new found realisation that it's actually the speaker that make the noise, and that that therefore they may be critical?It's actually the answer to that little conundrum that's bothering you so much. Speakers make the sound? Your wizdumb is astounding my man! Glad i learned that. Once again? now:When your looking at wattage.. lets say you had a 100w solid state amp sitting next to a 5w Class A tube amp. Which would be louder? Do you really believe he was referring to speakers? In that case it would depend on if the amp is even on? How many volts are supplied? 4 inch speaker vs. 18"? V30 Vs. GT75? Holy Fuk i just "thought" I was into my gear. Thats a tough question for some of you I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zozobra Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Speakers make the sound? Your wizdumb is astounding my man! Glad i learned that. Once again? now: When your looking at wattage.. lets say you had a 100w solid state amp sitting next to a 5w Class A tube amp. Which would be louder? Do you really believe he was referring to speakers? In that case it would depend on if the amp is even on? How many volts are supplied? 4 inch speaker vs. 18"? V30 Vs. GT75? Holy Fuk i just "thought" I was into my gear. Thats a tough question for some of you I bet. Ignoring where the power comes from and looking at just the power. 5W into 1 105dB sensitivity speaker creates an SPL of ~ 124dB 100W into 1 95dB sensitivity speaker creates an SPL of ~ 125dB You couldnt really tell much difference between the two. As for SS vs. tube... you've getting into the frequency dependence of the amplifier now which is too complicated to waste my keyboard on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeterChris Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Ignoring where the power comes from and looking at just the power. 5W into 1 105dB sensitivity speaker creates an SPL of ~ 124dB 100W into 1 95dB sensitivity speaker creates an SPL of ~ 125dB You couldnt really tell much difference between the two. As for SS vs. tube... you've getting into the frequency dependence of the amplifier now which is too complicated to waste my keyboard on Exactly why I wouldn't ask someone to explain. And as for some of you it's about an amp NOT speakers! One plays back louder. "Which one and WHY?" Remember he's asking about the amp NOT the fucking speakers shit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zozobra Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Yes but more often than not people dont do the test properly and only substitute the amp. {censored}ty SS amps usually have {censored}ty low efficiency speakers because they are {censored}ty and cheap. Most valve amps usually have speakers with efficiency in excess of 97dB so yes, end volume is exceptionally by the choice of speaker and the cab design. Small valve combos sometimes have way more efficient speakers that that and a 3dB boost here will be perceived to be twice the volume. If you want to talk about perceived volume between the two then its somewhat fruitless as a tube amp could quite easily have all the mids sucked out of it and the SS amp could be mid heavy and it would smoke the {censored} out of it as you've now in the realms of frequency hyping and how your ear interprets this coupled to the flecher munson curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Neither. Amps don't make sound...speakers do. Now shut the fuck up and quit arguing with the troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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