Members GCDEF Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Oh, yes it does. I think you're reading the post wrong, so any critizism would be I'm not being clear enough.I'm saying: 1) A lower W speaker would compress earlier than a higher W one at the same power. Hence the higher W one at similar sensitivity will be louder. Pure maths.And 2) the sensitivity rating can be misguiding if the speaker is rated for high Ws. The damper is so stiff it needs a few W to come alive. Hence my 150W Fanes are very efficient speakers measured at 98dB sensitivity. They would blow any H mag Celestion out of the water at 15Ws or more I gather, the Fane having so much more magnetic energy in the gap. Does that make sense to you? 1) A 30 watt amp through a 50 watt 102 dB speaker would still be louder than it would through a 100 watt 97dB speaker. You really can't make generalizations without specific numbers. 2) If the damper was stiff enough to impede movement at 1 watt, it would impeded it equally at higher wattage and be a less efficient speaker, so no, that doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Oh, I'm not bitten by anything that I was aware of. Yes, obviously the more power you feed into it the louder it gets. What are you trying to prove exactly? How would this help the OP to understand his dilemma? Calm down, sugar. I was agreeing with you that the sensitivity rating is misguiding when talking about high W speakers. Just trying to add to your, correct, statement. I wasn't trying to help the OP with anything. OP's g2g. There is a secondary discussion going on here. I'm contributing to that. As are you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 1) A 30 watt amp through a 50 watt 102 dB speaker would still be louder than it would through a 100 watt 97dB speaker. You really can't make generalizations without specific numbers.2) If the damper was stiff enough to impede movement at 1 watt, it would impeded it equally at higher wattage and be a less efficient speaker, so no, that doesn't make sense. Less efficient speakers can get louder than more efficient ones. THAT is the point he was trying to make. (I believe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members solitaire Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 1) A 30 watt amp through a 50 watt 102 dB speaker would still be louder than it would through a 100 watt 97dB speaker. You really can't make generalizations without specific numbers.2) If the damper was stiff enough to impede movement at 1 watt, it would impeded it equally at higher wattage and be a less efficient speaker, so no, that doesn't make sense. I'm not making any generalisations of any sort, mate. Come off it, why don't you? Everything I've stated is true scientific facts, and I'm working with this stuff on an every-day basis. I'm not sure I like that first example of yours as it has nothing to do with what I said in that your quote of my entry. And regarding that second example: It should be common knowledge that a higher rated speaker has a stiffer damper to hold up to the abuse. But dampers don't react in a linear fashion like you're suggesting when we add the electical and magnetical variables. Think about it: we have a stiff damper, a light moving mass and we vary the power fed into the speaker. Obviously the speaker would be at its most efficient between where it's over dampened and where it reaches compression, just like an engine peaks where it neither under revs nor over revs, but somewhere in the middle. A high W speaker is just a slow starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members solitaire Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Less efficient speakers can get louder than more efficient ones. THAT is the point he was trying to make. (I believe)We're supposed to know - not beleive. And: Yes, and I'm not saying anything different. Of course several tonnes of dynamite would be more powerfull than a few grams of TNT. It's just that it didn't have much to do with the point I was trying to make. At least we can agree on so many factors coming into play one can't say how loud a speaker would be in terms of rated power and the power fed into it without putting it all into an equation we can't say how loud the speaker(s) would play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members solitaire Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Calm down, sugar. I was agreeing with you that the sensitivity rating is misguiding when talking about high W speakers. Just trying to add to your, correct, statement. I wasn't trying to help the OP with anything. OP's g2g. There is a secondary discussion going on here. I'm contributing to that. As are you. OK, if you're saying so. It just seems everyone has something to say about what I just said that it distracts from the points I'm trying to make - by questioning it with unfounded theories or confusing terms and expressions that may be related but are not the same. Hope you understand that's why my reactions to further input on things I've stated. Had you clearly said you agreed to what I said my reaction would have been another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 We're supposed to know - not beleive.. I know. You know. I believed that "Less efficient speakers can still get louder than more efficient ones" was the point you were trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members poderoso Posted August 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Wow i didnt realize this thread turned into a more technical debate about volume.. If i were to get a 2x12 orange cab rated at 160watts (i think) what is the ideal wattage of the amp head so i can get the most power out of the cab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Wow i didnt realize this thread turned into a more technical debate about volume.. If i were to get a 2x12 orange cab rated at 160watts (i think) what is the ideal wattage of the amp head so i can get the most power out of the cab? There really is none, just make sure that you are under 160w and at the right ohm rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Explanation as stated above. It's basically an equation involving electrical power, power capacity, moving mass, cone/ piston area and magnetic force. One would have to specify the power where one speaker would be louder or quieter than the other. Then given the conditions a Celestion H will be louder than a Celestion M all things equal.I think the ratio to which you are refering is based on 1:1 = 120dB in terms of efficiency. However this only proves the point about the difference between sensitivity and efficiency. Same goes with output vs. gain, horsepower vs. torque and so on. Theoretically im sure you could make a point of all this, but i can say this: a Swamp Thang is louder than a Green Beret at all wattage levels(up to the wattage where the Green Beret can go to) and i know this because ive tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Wow i didnt realize this thread turned into a more technical debate about volume.. If i were to get a 2x12 orange cab rated at 160watts (i think) what is the ideal wattage of the amp head so i can get the most power out of the cab? As close to 160 as you can get. You still seem a little confused about what the cabinet power rating means. All it tells you is how much power it can safely handle. You can't really infer anything about volume except that you can use more powerful amps with speakers than handle more power. If you take a 30 watt amp for example, and plug it into a 50 watt speaker or a 150 watt speaker, just given those numbers, you can't draw any conclusion about which would be louder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Wow i didnt realize this thread turned into a more technical debate about volume.. If i were to get a 2x12 orange cab rated at 160watts (i think) what is the ideal wattage of the amp head so i can get the most power out of the cab? I wouldn't play that cab with anything larger than a 50-60w amp. A 100w Plexi will be outputting 150-160 at full tilt. A Herbert (loaded with 6L6's) will likely stay under 160w...clean...but cranked would demolish that cabinet. Remember that amp ratings are done with a clean signal. Usually less than 5% THD...(barely audible dirt)...how loud can you get your amp before you get ANY distortion? Cause thats when you're at the wattage rating. If you turn up to get more crunch...you're OVER the specified wattage. Also, frequency comes into play. If you're playing standard E stuff...up on the neck...you'll be able to get that wattage into the cab more safely than if you're playing Dropped H chugga chugga Brootz. FWIW...I've blown speakers in a Greenback 412 (100w cabinet) with a 20w amp...in under an hour. Did I exceed the thermal limits of the cabinet (did I exceed the wattage rating)? I srsly doubt it. I believe I blew them due to excessive excursion causing the coils to rub in the gap......by {censored}ing around with Dropped D dissonant chords. Just don't want you hurting your cab...wattage isn't the be all end all for how to safely use a cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members poderoso Posted August 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thanks for all the advice guys. Hmm... Its still unclear to me... Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thanks for all the advice guys. Hmm... Its still unclear to me... Haha Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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