Members fatback Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 It also seems that bending the 1st and 6th strings would be a problem as close as they are to the edge of the fretboard. (Freeman, I'm seeking to learn but am afraid I exhibiting my ignorance!) I'm looking forward to seeing what you see.Bill I sometime roll the high e string off the side of my crafter if I snatch at a chord. So I think this might well be a problem. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 but I do see some things that most setup techs would take issue with. Any comments? You crack me up, that first line was a killer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Here is Denny working on one of his, oops, your, guitars (actual pic from his site) Not unless he's gone to work for Godin! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 but I do see some things that most setup techs would take issue with. Any comments? Can you see that the frets are NOT filed flat with the neck? This is how my ZAD 80 looks. The strings however on my guitar do not fit down in the groove like the picture shows.. the low E, A, D and G strings on my guitar sit only half way down in the groove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DonK Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Can you see that the frets are NOT filed flat with the neck? This is how my ZAD 80 looks.The strings however on my guitar do not fit down in the groove like the picture shows.. the low E, A, D and G strings on my guitar sit only half way down in the groove. I don't see much of a crown on those frets: the tops appear to have been filed flat based on looking at the edges. Admittedly, the angle of the picture makes it a bit hard to tell. Those nut slots are awful, though: you wouldn't want to bend much on that guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 I'm with Bill here. That's the first thing I noticed. Yikes! That nut and those string angles look almost exactly like what's on my infamous B-B git. (B-B = Blue Beater). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DEP Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Can you see that the frets are NOT filed flat with the neck? This is how my ZAD 80 looks.The strings however on my guitar do not fit down in the groove like the picture shows.. the low E, A, D and G strings on my guitar sit only half way down in the groove. That's interesting TC. I wonder why they would have a photo of the nut done one way on the site, and do the actual guitar another way? I thought the whole point was the String Science method. Whatever it is, you'd at least think it would be consistent. I think DonK is right about the profile of the frets though. True, they're not taken down to the fretboard, but they do appear to have been flattened (I wonder what the point of that is?). Are yours the same way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Can you see that the frets are NOT filed flat with the neck? This is how my ZAD 80 looks. The strings however on my guitar do not fit down in the groove like the picture shows.. the low E, A, D and G strings on my guitar sit only half way down in the groove. Look again. Also look carefully at the upper of those two marked frets. There is a line going across that is not light shining off an arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Dak, I may be wrong, but I think you and TC are talking about two different things. You're talking about the frets and he's talking about the nut grooves, I think. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Look again. Also look carefully at the upper of those two marked frets. There is a line going across that is not light shining off an arc. Is that not the strings' reflection on the fret? What am I missing? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Bill, the ends of the fret wire is flat on top and squared off. The upper fret, if you look at it, has a line going horizontally across the fret surface and it looks flat, not like a light glint. On top of that a light glint would not be as consistent across the fret. Also, TC referred to both the frets and the nut with it sounding like the nut on his is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DonK Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Is that not the strings' reflection on the fret? What am I missing?Bill No, if you closely at just the fret edge - i.e., the bevel -, you'll see it resembles a rectangle: it should have an arc on the edge nearest the strings. The strings are reflected on the tops of the frets, in each case to the left of the strings themselves. Look at the fret edge bevel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Look again. Also look carefully at the upper of those two marked frets. There is a line going across that is not light shining off an arc. I was referring to the frets filed down flush with the fret board of the guitar to allow clearance for the lower string heights. Not the shape of the fret itself. There have been negative comments about the frets being filed down to where there were no frets at all. In this picture it looks like the shape of the fret is almost square, mine are rounded and smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 No, if you closely at just the fret edge - i.e., the bevel -, you'll see it resembles a rectangle: it should have an arc on the edge nearest the strings. The strings are reflected on the tops of the frets, in each case to the left of the strings themselves. Look at the fret edge bevel. Thanks. Yes, I saw that. I misunderstood what what Dak was pointing out. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 I was referring to the frets filed down flush with the fret board of the guitar to allow clearance for the lower string heights. Not the shape of the fret itself. There have been negative comments about the frets being filed down to where there were no frets at all. In this picture it looks like the shape of the fret is almost square, mine are rounded and smooth. TC, It seems strange that your git is done differently than the stock photo on the Zager site. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 TC,It seems strange that your git is done differently than the stock photo on the Zager site.Bill Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 I was referring to the frets filed down flush with the fret board of the guitar to allow clearance for the lower string heights. Not the shape of the fret itself. There have been negative comments about the frets being filed down to where there were no frets at all. In this picture it looks like the shape of the fret is almost square, mine are rounded and smooth. OK, I understand that. There are a number of reports that describe the frets being filed down very close to the fretboard and flat on top as well. That is not a good thing. The guitar frets shown, with the flat top won't be true either though not as bad.It sounds like you're guitar has a proper nut and fret crowning. Really TC. I hope it's going to bring you lots of happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 OK, I understand that. There are a number of reports that describe the frets being filed down very close to the fretboard and flat on top as well. That is not a good thing. The guitar frets shown, with the flat top won't be true either though not as bad.It sounds like you're guitar has a proper nut and fret crowning.Really TC. I hope it's going to bring you lots of happiness. Thanks, it has. You had me scared there for a while with your thread STFU about Zagers though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Thanks, it has. You had me scared there for a while with your thread STFU about Zagers though! Yeah, well, your post came in at the wrong time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 you figure that picture is 20 years old? i mean he stopped doing the setup's 20 years ago...? 8^)and.. how difficult would it be for him to specify the nut design (depth and string spacing) on a factory made guitar? he already spec's the scalloping- why not save himself a step? saddles also? strings as well- ? Nope. Just means that now his face probably looks like somebody let all the air out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members happy-man Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 First a comment on patents in general. They don't imply anything good or bad about the invention. The idea needs to be non obvious and not previously taught in the art. Like an electrified table cloth. Or a combination bird trap, cat feeder. (I've got a bunch of these. They're hilarious) Or you can have a design patent, which doesn't protect the invention, it just keeps someone from making an exact copy. So you can't just go and duplicate this guy's potty chair: Secondly, it can take a while for a patent to issue. Just because it's held up a long time in the system doesn't mean it's not valid or good. My last one took over 7 years from filing until it was issued. Most have taken about 2 years. Now to address the Zager filings. There are two published filings. One was invented by Denny SR and JR. It is a capo. Offhand I'd guess that this could get issued. If you had asked me to try the Zager nut spacing on one of my guitars, I don't know that I would have though of doing it this way. To me, it passes the test of not being obvious (one of the criteria for a patent). With this you could try out a Zager string spacing without modifying your nut. One of you might want to try this. The second one, by Denny SR, addresses the Zager system. The invention does not teach in the area of fret height or relief. Specifically what is claimed is a guitar comprising: (a) a Zager spaced nut, (b) a saddle at least 7/16in from top, and © a neck angled greater than about 180 degrees. I personally do not see that this is patentable. Again, being patentable does not imply anything good or bad about the invention. Someone skilled in the art knows about string spacing, saddle height, neck angle, and how all these effect playability. I don't see that this teaches anything new. Some patentable inventions do not get through the system if the examiner doesn't "get it". Others get through even though should not have. The system isn't perfect, but it's what we have. I help review invention disclosures at work to recommend filing (or not). Scott O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Electrified Tablecloth???????????? Oh, sh**, don't tell Denny. He'll find a way to incorporate that into a git and call it "Roach Science." And now, folks, it's singalong time with the Half-Soused Zagerettes! "In the year 2525, No cockroaches were alive, coz Denny's cloth did survive On my giiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt............................" Bartender, another round, if you please, Good Sir!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerseyGuy Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Thanks, happy-man, I agree that the second patent app shouldn't be approved. The problem I have with the first now that you have shown the drawing is that the bracing mechanism for the capo infringes on the Shubb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 That second one does not seem patentable to me. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members happy-man Posted March 8, 2008 Members Share Posted March 8, 2008 Thanks, happy-man, I agree that the second patent app shouldn't be approved. The problem I have with the first now that you have shown the drawing is that the bracing mechanism for the capo infringes on the Shubb. This could or could not be a problem, depending on the claims. I'm not going to go back over it to figure that out, but I think Zager is fine here. I don't think he makes any specific claims on the capo clamp mechanism. You can add on to someone else's invention and get a patent on the addition. That doesn't mean you can use the previous invention if it is still protected, but it means someone else can't use your improvement. Scott O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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