Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Riffmeister found the two patent applications credited to Denny Zager and I thought I would comment from my limited perspective. Note that apparently they were not accepted (??) - maybe I can see why. United States Patent Application 20050268769 Kind Code A1 Zager, Dennis SR. December 8, 2005 AbstractA guitar is presented which may include a nut having a first edge slot for receiving a first edge string, the first slot having a center point being positioned away from a first edge of the nut a first distance no less than about {fraction (3/32)}", a saddle positioned in a bridge including a first portion having a height of greater than or equal to about {fraction (7/16)}" as measured from the guitar top and a neck positioned at an angle greater than about 180 degrees from the guitar top. United States Patent Application 20050087056 Kind Code A1 Zager, Dennis JR. ; et al. April 28, 2005 AbstractA musical instrument string spacing device is provided and may include a first member for interaction with one or more strings positioned on a top surface of a neck of a musical instrument. The first member may include a plurality of sides, where each side may include a plurality of recesses arranged in a respective predetermined spaced apart relationship, and where each recess may be used for receiving a respective string of the musical instrument. Each of the sides of the first member may be positioned to interact with one or more strings of the musical instrument. The string spacing device may also include a second member in a compressive arrangement with the first member, where the second member engages a lower surface of the neck of the musical instrument. There seems to be three parts to the first one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Talk about obfuscation. It's going to take a while to digest that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members darksun Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 ZAGER?????????????? never heard of him:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Freeman, I have some familiarity with patents in the work I do. From my experience, let's just say that *anyone* can file a patent application on *anything* using *any* data. All you have to do is pay the filing fees. Whether or not the patent is *granted* by the US Patent Office is another matter entirely. In my line of work, it usually takes about 3 years from time of filing to the time that a patent is issued (granted) by the US Patent Office. If the same time table applies here, we should know this year or next whether Mr. Zager's patents become enforceable. Any bets?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outdoorgb Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 So if I inadvertently set up my guitar to the same measurements listed in United States Patent Application 20050268769 then I could be found guilty of patent infringement? If it were a real patent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TCBronson Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Freeman, I have some familiarity with patents in the work I do. From my experience, let's just say that *anyone* can file a patent application on *anything* using *any* data. All you have to do is pay the filing fees. Whether or not the patent is *granted* by the US Patent Office is another matter entirely. In my line of work, it usually takes about 3 years from time of filing to the time that a patent is issued (granted) by the US Patent Office. If the same time table applies here, we should know this year or next whether Mr. Zager's patents become enforceable. Any bets?? Isn't that called Patent Pending. Does Zager mention that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bsman Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 So if I inadvertently set up my guitar to the same measurements listed in United States Patent Application 20050268769 then I could be found guilty of patent infringement? If it were a real patent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Isn't that called Patent Pending. Does Zager mention that? Direct quote from his page, copy, click, paste... Made in the same place as our Martins, but exactly to our specifications, then hand modified by Denny using his patented "EZ-Play" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerseyGuy Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Very interesting, Freeman and thanks for letting us see. I don't do a lot of "intellectual property" law, but I can say a few things. You cannot get a patent for anything unless it is truly original (and someone sued for patent infringement can always defend on the ground of lack of originality). Thus, it's the description of the idea that's so important because the patent examiners look at that, compare it to other existing or pending patents and decide if it (a) is too close to another existing or pending patent or (b) just not original. I don't know if the reason for the rejection is part of the public file. Since a patent is a legal monopoly, we should all hope these have been rejected, or will be, because anyone who does set a git at the these specs is, as bsman says, potentially liable for infringement. I really don't see anything original about different measurements on guitar set-ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerseyGuy Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Also, did you notice that one app is sr and one is jr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Considering Freeman's post no. 8, is this another deceptive piece of the puzzle? This gets interestinger and interstinger. Seriously, am I right in understanding that one of the reasons the Zager is easier to play, besides the string spacing, is because the frets are lower which allows the strings to be lower to the fretboard without the consequent fretboard from normal height frets? If so, is there a long-term concern about this? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Another deceptive piece of the puzzle? This gets interestinger and interstinger.Seriously, am I right in understanding that one of the reasons the Zager is easier to play, besides the string spacing, is because the frets are lower which allows the strings to be lower to the fretboard without the consequent fretboard from normal height frets? If so, is there a long-term concern about this?Bill According to a report on AGF, the frets on his Zager were filed flat on top. There is a very good reason (actually several) why frets are crowned. As this is unconfirmed I am waiting for one of our Zager owners to post pics. Most guitar instructors will tell you that when you fret a string you bring it down to the wire, but not to the fretboard ("quit choking that thing"). Try this little test - fret a note at say 7 or 8 just to the wire. Pick it and squeeze to the fretboard. Goes sharp, doesn't it. An obvious problem with filing the frets (whether you crown or not) is that when the wear you can't file and crown your frets (duh). Kimsey charges $10/fret to replace them (normal refret is $150) - normal crown and polish is $40. Some folks need it every few years, some can go 20. I had 5 frets replaced on my D-18 and the reset crowned. Many players actually like "jumbo" frets- they get better control of notes, particularly if they bend a lot. I start with moderately high frets on my homemade gits since my crappy fretting usually requires a fair amount of crowning to get things level and nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Here is a picture of one of Denny's nuts (lets see, can I say that differently?) from his website. I don't see "a first edge slot for receiving a first edge string, the first slot having a center point being positioned away from a first edge of the nut a first distance no less than about {fraction (3/32)}", but I do see some things that most setup techs would take issue with. Any comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 but I do see some things that most setup techs would take issue with. Any comments? I'm a novice about such tech stuff, but it looks as thought the strings were swallowed by the nut, for one thing. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 It also seems that bending the 1st and 6th strings would be a problem as close as they are to the edge of the fretboard. (Freeman, I'm seeking to learn but am afraid I exhibiting my ignorance!) I'm looking forward to seeing what you see. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 It also seems that bending the 1st and 6th strings would be a problem as close as they are to the edge of the fretboard. (Freeman, I'm seeking to learn but am afraid I exhibiting my ignorance!) I'm looking forward to seeing what you see. Bill Well you nailed the obvious thing on your last post. It is hard to tell about bending - the location of the string relative to the edge is kind of a personal matter (bending, thumb fretting) - these probably aren't too bad. The corners of the nut look a bit sharp - you might feel those (particularly if you play by feel at the frist fret). But the biggie is how deeply the strings are buried (and that is so easy to fix) - here is one from Kimsey's site (he comments about the low break angle caused by the Rotomatic tuners). On a good nut the grooves curve towards the tuner for that string Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Yes, the nut slots in the Zager pic look very deep to me. BTW, about fret height, I have had three classical guitars refretted with taller frets. Why? Because the original low frets made the guitar *harder* for me to play. When fretting with low frets, my fingertips would come in contact with the fretboard, creating a "drag" of sorts. With taller frets, my fingertips do not touch the fretboard (or not very much, at least), and I can play more cleanly and faster. So, for me, low frets are a complete bummer. And as Freeman points out, *too* high and then you start to bend the notes sharp as you squeeze harder. Hard to say for sure from the Zager picture above, but those frets look "okay" to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 But the biggie is how deeply the strings are buried (and that is so easy to fix) - here is one from Kimsey's site (he comments about the low break angle caused by the Rotomatic tuners). On a good nut the grooves curve towards the tuner for that string But if you "fix" the nut, does that raise the string and cancel Zager's purported "EZ Play," or do you take down the top of the nut so the string is not "buried"? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 But if you "fix" the nut, does that raise the string and cancel Zager's purported "EZ Play," or do you take down the top of the nut so the string is not "buried"?Bill If all clearances are within specs you would take down the top of the nut to the proper height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 But if you "fix" the nut, does that raise the string and cancel Zager's purported "EZ Play," or do you take down the top of the nut so the string is not "buried"?Bill One of the last steps is to take the top of the nut down so almost half of the string is exposed - that makes it tune easily without binding. Then you polish the heck out of until it just shine. It is interesting that Kimsey added this note to the picture "It wouldn't hurt for me to remove just a little more of the top of the nut so that 1/2 the string is exposed, but it's easy to go just a little too far and ruin the nut, so I'm probably going to just leave it alone. I've polished the frets and have glued the nut to the fingerboard with a smear of bottled hide glue." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 One of the last steps is to take the top of the nut down so almost half of the string is exposed - that makes it tune easily without binding. Then you polish the heck out of until it just shine. It is interesting that Kimsey added this note to the picture "It wouldn't hurt for me to remove just a little more of the top of the nut so that 1/2 the string is exposed, but it's easy to go just a little too far and ruin the nut, so I'm probably going to just leave it alone. I've polished the frets and have glued the nut to the fingerboard with a smear of bottled hide glue." So does Kimsey have the strings lower on the nut with the top of the nut removed in his modification? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Also, I take it that Zager's much ballyhooed setup is flawed because the strings would bind in the nut during tuning. Or did you already say something like that? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jd-drafter Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 Direct quote from his page, copy, click, paste...Made in the same place as our Martins, but exactly to our specifications, then hand modified by Denny using his patented "EZ-Play" system. that's funny- i got a quote as well- from denny jr. in an email- see below- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Denny stopped doing set up over 20 years ago as his attorneys said itwas too risky liability wise working on very expensive guitars sent bycustomers all over the world. The Martins Denny had to scallop wherethe Zagers already have the braces designed by Denny in them so thefinished product just turns out better overall. If you have any questions, please let me know.Warmest regards, Dennis Zager Jr.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my previous message to him- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~jesse dowling wrote:> thanks for the info->> i guess i am still wondering about the scalloping of the braces and> voicing...>> i have seen braces re-scalloped in finished guitars but it's very> tricky...>> if mr zager is retiring will he still be doing the setups?>> jesse~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ take that as you will- zager hasn't been personally "zagerizing" for 20 years! he does not scallop the braces- he order's them that way...! so... after visiting the site who else gets the impression that denny sr. set's each guitar up by hand? i mean he signs each one right? freemans quote certainly implies that he does the setup's by hand. and let's say that the website is just outdated and they "forgot" to adjust the language accordingly- i don't think that site is 20 years old do you? if you don't get that impression them please explain why. this seems very suspect to me and is precisely the reason forumites are so emotional about the topic. it's an outright lie... or at least a grievous mis-statement to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 So does Kimsey have the strings lower on the nut with the top of the nut removed in his modification? Bill Kimsey publishes his specs and thoughts about them on his page http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/index.htm Since I have experience with them and they seem to work, those are the numbers I use. Clearance at the nut is a compromise just like everything else - you want it as low as possible for easy fretting without buzzing (both on the saddle side and behind your fretting finger). The normal proceedure is to keep filing the slots deeper, either using some measurement criteria or testing it by feel, until you are satisfied. At that point you bring the top down so about half the wound string is exposed and then do the final cleanup. Last step is to very lightly glue the nut in. Here is Denny working on one of his, oops, your, guitars (actual pic from his site) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jd-drafter Posted March 7, 2008 Members Share Posted March 7, 2008 you figure that picture is 20 years old? i mean he stopped doing the setup's 20 years ago...? 8^) and.. how difficult would it be for him to specify the nut design (depth and string spacing) on a factory made guitar? he already spec's the scalloping- why not save himself a step? saddles also? strings as well- ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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