Yamaha A3R: Low Action ??!!

[xuoham]

Before i bought the A3R, i was reading here and there that the action is low, Yamaha even made it a point that the action should be low (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKto2Xj7pt0-i informative even if you don't understand japanese), but when i went to the store to check one, i was surprised to see that the action felt high, like well above 3mm from the 12th fret to the 6th string. Since i really like most of this guitar i bought it and sanded the saddle: now the action feels like an electric (around 2mm at 12th fret) without any buzz and with perfect intonation, and as long as the saddle's bottom is smooth there should be no damage to the pickup element, at least in my case.

 

But i was wondering, did anybody besides Hudman buy a Yam A series and thought its action was low ?

More generally, what is considered low action in the acoustic world, compared to electric guitars?

 

By the way what are the nut and saddle made of ? Seems like plastic to me.

Anyone knows ?

And do you know if i can find same size replacement saddle, or do i have to get one from stewmac and sand it to size myself ?

I was a bit suprised by the lack of information on Yamaha's websites, both US and Japan. What's the saddle made of ? What is the visual signal that tells you an hour in advance that the battery is gonna run out ?

 

Thanks for your help

[DeepEnd]

Haven't bought or played one but I'd say 2.5mm or so for the low E and about 1.5mm for the high E is fairly standard on an acoustic; it's what I aim for anyway. Without looking, I'd say the nut and saddle are probably plastic. If you want a replacement saddle, look here: http://www.allparts.com/Compensated-Bone-Saddle-p/bs-0254-000.htm and here: http://www.allparts.com/Fully-Compensated-Bone-Saddle-p/bs-2213-000.htm. Choose whichever saddle is closest to the right length and be prepared to sand it to height.

[Freeman Keller]

I have no experience with the Yamaha A series, but I do quite a few setups and have a general idea of what I (and others) feel is "low action".

 

First, lets start with Martins factory specs - this is a quote that I found somewhere

 

Martin Guitar Factory Specifications

 

Bridge Saddle Protrusion: 3/32"min~3/16"max

String height at the 12th fret: On the Bass E string: 3/32"min~7/64"max. On the Treble E string: 1/16"min~5/64"max

 

 

I consider Martins to ship with medium -high action from the factory, remember that is it much easier to lower the action than raise it. Another common feeling about Martins is that the nut slots are on the high side - again, a good setup tech can lower easier than raise.

 

Lets change everyting to decimal inches - my StewMac spacing rule and my digital calipers both read in those, so that is what I'm familiar with.

 

Low E - 0.095 to 0.110

High E - 0.065 to 0.078

 

3mm = 0.118

2.5mm = 0.095

2mm = 0.080

1.5mm = 0.058

 

If you truely measured the low E at 3 mm that would be about 0.118 - the high side of Martins specs. If you truely went to 2 mm, that ould be 0.080, way below Martins specs. As you know, the lower you go with 12th fret action, the less relief you need and the more perfect your frets have to be. An electric can get away with it because you don't hear the buzzing, but on an acoustic you would be pushing the envelope.

 

My personal goals for "low fingerstyle action" are somewhere around 0.095 low E, 0.075 high, relief around 0.004-5, nut slots 0.020 (low) to 0.012 (high). I work slowly to those values, adjusting each one a little at a time, and checking the intonation as I go. Last consideration is to have at least 1/8 inch saddle sticking out of the bridge.

 

I consider Deepend's numbers too low, but if he can make them work, more power to him.

 

As far as saddle material - yea, probably plastic. If it is bone it will stink as you sand it. Composits like Tusq might be used, but normally that will show on the specs. Bone is my preference - cheap, hard, easy to work with. Bob Colosi sells saddles to fit almost everything - if he doesn't show it on the list he can make if for you.

 

http://www.guitarsaddles.com/

 

However, if you have a belt sander you can make your own from StewMac blanks, which is a good idea if you want to tweak the intonation.

 

Good luck, and before I forget my manners, welcome to HCAG

[xuoham]

Thank a lot ! Very informative.

 

No, i'm a little more than 2mm, 2,3mm actually and i am more a fingerpicking guy than a strummer so i guess it works fine.

 

Ouch, belt sander ? Is bone that hard ? How about a file, sandpaper and a vise ?

 

Anyway, really appreciate the help !

 

Cheers !

[FretFiend.]

Ouch, belt sander ? Is bone that hard ? How about a file, sandpaper and a vise ?

A flat surface, sandpaper, a wood block, and a little patience, will do fine. Probably safer too.

[xuoham]

Allright !! Thanks !

 

But, Freeman, your link is precious, this guy not only has the newer Yammies saddles (and i got confirmed it's plastic) size but you can even send your saddle and he will copy it. Awesome !

 

Great forum ! Thanks guys ^ ^

[Freeman Keller]

 

Thank a lot ! Very informative. No, i'm a little more than 2mm, 2,3mm actually and i am more a fingerpicking guy than a strummer so i guess it works fine. Ouch, belt sander ? Is bone that hard ? How about a file, sandpaper and a vise ? Anyway, really appreciate the help ! Cheers !

 

 

I buy oversized blanks that require a fair amount of material to be removed. They do not have the top shaped. A belt sander is a quick and easy way to rough them to size. Final shaping with files, then sandpaper, then I like to polish with rouge - however one guy complained that my highly polished saddle looked like plastic LOL. When you sand bone it stinks like burning hair.

 

When you get your saddle from Colosi (he is a great resource, by the way) it should be very close to dropping in the slot, will be curved on top and generically compensated. Use 220 grit paper with a block of wood or metal as a fence to hold it vertical and simply sand the bottom. You might have to gently sand the side to get it to fit also. I start by measuring the height at 12, calculate where I want to be. You need to remove 2X that amount from the bottom of the saddle - make a pencil mart at that point. Take it down half way to the line and try it, string it up to tension, measure and play. Then go half way to the line again. Stop when it feels close and play it for a week or so, the a little more if you need it. Bob's saddle will be precompensated - I do that as one of the last steps before final shaping of the break point.

 

Remember, it is easy to take more off, very difficult to put it back on.

 

And of course, make sure your guitar is perfectly humidified, the frets are perfectly true, and the relief is set correctly before you start - each of these can affect the final action dramatically.

 

Here is a really old thread about doing a setup, but it might give you some pointers

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-2658342.html

[DeepEnd]

 

. . . Martin Guitar Factory Specifications Bridge Saddle Protrusion: 3/32"min~3/16"max String height at the 12th fret: On the Bass E string: 3/32"min~7/64"max. On the Treble E string: 1/16"min~5/64"max . . . . . . I consider Deepend's numbers too low, but if he can make them work, more power to him. . . . . . . Bob Colosi sells saddles to fit almost everything - if he doesn't show it on the list he can make if for you. http://www.guitarsaddles.com/ . . .

 

I also use inches, 3/32" for the low E and 1/16" (2/32") for the high E. This translates into 2.38125mm for the low E and 1.5875mm for the high (1 inch = 25.4mm). I rounded the numbers off a tad, to 2.5mm and 1.5mm, but they're within normal specs for an acoustic. You (the OP) did say you were after "low action" and that's about as low as you can go. As for Bob Colossi, I'm sure he's a great guy but AllParts.com will sell you four or five saddles for the same price as one of his. Gary Palmer, a former forum member and retired luthier turned me on to AllParts saddles and said there's no reason to spend more. I happen to agree.

[xuoham]

Alright, thanks guys ! Would tusq be easier to sand and/or have a similar sound or bone is definitely better ?

[DeepEnd]

Personally, I think you're talking six of one and half a dozen of another. TUSQ should be tougher to sand because it's less porous than bone. OTOH, bone has tradition on its side. You'll probably notice a similar difference either way.

[katopp]

I disagree.

TuSQ is easy to work with. It does not smell when sanded and it does not have any inconsistence.

IMHO TuSQ is a material that is soundwise as good as good bone, but that is much easier to work.

I do not want to try any Ivory, fossilized or not, endangered or not, Hawskbill Tortoiseshell or any of the other materials I see as "unethical", so apart from Camelbone, which is supposed to be the best material, TuSQ is the best stuff.

But bone needs a lot of work and it is not consistent in it's structure or quality. You may have a weak spot in the bone and you won't find out after hours of stinking, smelling work - thanks but no thanks. I may only get to 98% of the possible sound by using TuSQ, but with TuSQ I'm constantly there. Not at the 40% of bad Chinese plastic, not at the 60% of good quality plastic, not at the 80% of average bone ... I'm fine with what TuSQ gives me. No need for anything else.

My Sigma came with two saddles, one bone, one TuSQ. Guess, what's in it now .... TuSQ!

[Freeman Keller]

 

Alright, thanks guys ! Would tusq be easier to sand and/or have a similar sound or bone is definitely better ?

 

 

Tusq is a synthetic, lets call it a "plastic". It was originally marketed as a replacement for FWI or elephant ivory, both which are extremely illegal. It is hard like ivory, but easy to work.

 

The big reason that Taylor and others use it is that it can be cast in the general size/shape and then cnc milled. Bone requires some handwork to finish and fit. Old Bob loves his cnc's and hates to do anything by hand. I'll add that I replaced the Tusq saddle in my old 314 with bone and couldn't tell any difference - they choice is yours.