Wish You Were Here acoustic guitar sound

[Bluewater]

The lead acoustic guitar in Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here has always impressed me in terms of its presence in the mix. Any ideas as to how they got that "in your face", clearly articulated, clean and dynamic sound?

[geek_usa]

Without actually listening to the song in a long time, I would probably say a dynamic mic would do the trick rather than a condenser.

 

To make it sit back in the mix add some very mild compression and a little reverb. That should get you pretty close I would think.

[rog951]

 

Originally posted by geek_usa Without actually listening to the song in a long time, I would probably say a dynamic mic would do the trick rather than a condenser. To make it sit back in the mix add some very mild compression and a little reverb. That should get you pretty close I would think.

 

 

I would've guessed just the opposite. Granted, I haven't heard this song in a long time either, but it sounds like a close-miked SD condenser to me. There's no room sound in it at all and there's a lot of finger squeak. If I had to make a blind guess, I'd say an AKG 451E pointed at the 12th fret.

 

To be clear now, we're talking about the solo guitar, not any of the the strumming guitars, right? The guitars playing the opening chords are purposfully filtered/muffled but still sound ambient to me. And then, in stark contrast, the solo acoustic guitar comes in and it seems like it's being played an inch in front of your face. I remember when I first heard the song, I almost though it was a mistake or something; quite a shocking juxtaposition...

[rog951]

Actually, more to the point of the OP's question, maybe that's the formula for making a very clear, present solo recording: make all the background instruments sound comparatively dull and rolled-off on the highs!

 

I think there's more of that at work on "Wish You Were Here" than any unusual clarity of the solo instrument being recorded. Now I have to go and have a listen...

[Bluewater]

Yeah, it's the "inch in front of your face" effect I'm after. I think it's more than the rhythm guitars being filtered. The solo acoustic tone is pretty extraordinary in its own right. I'd be interested in additional opinions if you decide to listen to it.

 

Thanks for the input.

[Phil O'Keefe]

The guitars playing the opening chords are purposfully filtered/muffled but still sound ambient to me.

 

Yup... heavily bandpass filtered. The acoustic definitely sounds close mic'ed (probably a Sm Dia. condenser) and a bit compressed to my ears, but is otherwise fairly "standard".

 

The hardest thing about duplicating that part exactly is probably not the recording / tools used, but nailing DG's playing.

[Bob Keelan]

I think it's also worth mentioning here that the contrast of the distant opening guitar really sets the listener up for the 'in your face' aspect of the second guitar.

[Kiwiburger]

Quote from the man:

"When it sounds like it's coming out of a radio, it was done by equalisation. We just made a copy of the mix and ran it through eq. to make it very middly, knocking out all the bass and most of the high top so that it sounds radio-like. The interference was recorded on my car cassette radio and all we did was to put that track on top of the original track. It's all meant to sound like the first track getting sucked into a radio with one person sittng in the room playing guitar along with the radio."

 

 

I think juxtoposition is under-used. If you want one instrument to sound great, contrast it with one that sounds lo-fi.

[rog951]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger I think juxtoposition is under-used. If you want one instrument to sound great, contrast it with one that sounds lo-fi.

 

 

Yeah, me too. It can be a powerful tool. Like Bob K said, in this particular example, your ears are totally set up by that lo-fi intro and it makes the solo part seem that much more like it's right there in the room with you. Amazing.

 

I noticed a trend toward this a while back with several bands; they'd start out a song really lo-fi and quiet and then it'd kick in loud and proud. I know Collective Soul started one of their albums like that, with just a super lo-fi drum loop before everything came in guns blazin'. Pretty cool. I know there are other examples too but my brain isn't up to the task right now...

[Bluewater]

Since you guys are the experts, I'll take your word for it that it's more the juxtaposition than the recording technique that makes the lead acoustic stand out. To my ears, however, there still seems to be something unique about the timbre and or presence of that part. I have a dynamic and a large condensor -- maybe a small condensor is worth investing in.

 

And since we're on the subject, any recommendations for small condensors for acoustic guitar recording? Preferably in the not-to-exceed $500 range.

 

Thanks folks.

 

And Phil: I've given up on trying to replicate DG's playing long ago;)

[Phil O'Keefe]

Under $500 acoustic guitar oriented small diaphragm condensers that I've liked:

 

Audio Technica AT4041. Great bang for the bucks... and if you look hard enough, you can find 'em new for under $200 each.

 

Octava MC012's: Russian models rock hard, but their quality control is a bit spotty. BEWARE! The current models sold by some shops may be Chinese clones... and those may be fine, but I have not tried them, so I can't comment. Caveat emptor.

 

Groove Tubes GT33: I really like these a lot on acoustic guitar - they are not the most "natural / neutral" sounding mics on every source, but they seem to have a certain upper-midrange "brashness" to them that can compliment some acoustic guitars in a very cool way.

[rog951]

 

Originally posted by Bluewater Since you guys are the experts, I'll take your word for it that it's more the juxtaposition than the recording technique that makes the lead acoustic stand out. To my ears, however, there still seems to be something unique about the timbre and or presence of that part. I have a dynamic and a large condensor -- maybe a small condensor is worth investing in. And since we're on the subject, any recommendations for small condensors for acoustic guitar recording? Preferably in the not-to-exceed $500 range. Thanks folks. And Phil: I've given up on trying to replicate DG's playing long ago;)

 

 

Yeah, I'm not trying to dismiss that there might be a unique tonal flavor on the solo track; there very well may be. I'm just saying, don't underestimate the effect of having the background instruments sounding so distant. I still haven't had a chance to go back and listen to it yet but I should over the weekend. I'm kinda imagining that I remember hearing some background noise, like somebody rustling around or maybe a sniffle or something, during the solo part. If so, I wonder it that's an overdub or if it was picked up by the acoustic guitar mic. Might be a clue to the technique used...or I might just be hallucinating again...

 

As for an SD condensor, definitely worth the investment for acoustic guitar alone IMO. Look at the Audio Technica line. AT4041 and AT4051 are both nice mics and both under $500. In fact, I recently picked up a pair of 4041s for under $400. For super cheap, I used to recommend the Oktava MK012 but they can be kinda hit or miss and now there are supposedly some Chinese knock-offs floating around that may or may not sound as good.

 

EDIT: Damn Phil, ya beat me to it. I really love those 4041s on acoustic guitar...

[Bluewater]

Thanks guys and one last thing: will the 4041 be different enough from my AT 3035 to justify the investment, or should I consider something else?

[gsHarmony]

I really like the Oktavas although they are a little harder to find.

[Bob Keelan]

I gotta put in a word for the MXL 603s too. Somewhat similar to the Oktavas (to my ears) but with a more sparkly high-end.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by Bluewater Thanks guys and one last thing: will the 4041 be different enough from my AT 3035 to justify the investment, or should I consider something else?

 

I have not spent any real time with the 3035, so direct comparisons are out... but the 3035 is a large diaphragm mic, and I can't imagine it's not going to sound different than a SD condenser like say, a 4041... but better or worse are completely subjective. I've been known to use small diaphragm condensers on an acoustic, or a pair of Telefunken ELA M251's (LD condensers) or ribbon mics on an acoustic. For me, it's about whatever gives me what we're after, for that particular source and that particular track / song.

 

But while I don't stick to any single mic choice / placement "routine" for acoustic, I do have some preferences and things I frequently do use - and those 4041's are on that list. They can and do indeed sound great on acoustic. Will you prefer them enough to justify the purchase price? Only your ears can decide that - but IMO, you should definitely audition one (or better yet, two) if you get the opportunity. But don't overlook the other suggestions you've gotten. For example the Groove Tubes GT33 is a completely different flavor than the 4041's, and one you may (or may not) prefer. I have a XY stereo GT33 rig all set up out in the tracking room at this very moment, and I'd probably be using it right now if I didn't have a big swarm of bees between me and there.

 

Oh what I wouldn't have given to have such a wide range of cool tools available at these prices back when I was getting started with all of this recording stuff. Decisions, decisions - I'd better get two of each! Watch out, or you might wind up with over 50 mics in your locker like I did!

[rog951]

I just finished listening to Wish You Were Here; the whole album. It'd been several years since I took the time to do that so thanks to Bluewater for starting this thread and giving me an excuse. This was my college soundtrack. I used to call it "music to flunk-out by."

 

Anyway, that solo part, to me anyway, just sounds like a well-recorded acoustic guitar. Might've been just one mic or maybe two but nothing too unconventional I don't think. It's definitely a dry-sounding recording; I detect little (if any) reverb on it. That's another reason it jumps out at you so much, methinks.

 

Oh, and there is a throat-clear and a sniffle during the intro, a measure or so before the solo starts. I'm guessing it's just D.G. before he started playing and they picked it up on the guitar mic and decided to leave it. Nice touch.

 

Edit: forgot to mention...Shine on You Crazy Diamond is just ridiculous. Especially the second half...I love that slide stuff that just builds and gets crazier and more high-pitched and squeal-y-fied. Then it resolves to that beautiful melody guitar. Just about perfect to me.