Members nightwatchman Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Here's a pretty good article on Myths concerning guitar tonewoods, etc. http://www.guitarattack.com/mythbusters.htm MYTHBUSTERS! Let's talk Teles! We love the show "MythBusters" on Discovery. We like to see those urban legends die at the hands of analysis and reason. We think the guys on MythBusters could do an entire season on the folklore and half-truths that drive the guitar business. As you know, we at GuitarAttack are constantly on the lookout for gear hounds who forget that the most important component of playing guitar is, arguably, being able to play guitar. This has been a consistent theme here at GuitarAttack World Headquarters since we went on line in 1998. We did an article on Mr. Dan Toler that addressed this issue. We believe that his incredible tone and technique is due mostly to his experience, talent, and dedication. You can find this article by clicking here. There is audio evidence available for the non-believers. During a surf of the web in June 2005, we found this exchange on one of the many Telecaster forums, and we offer it up for your consideration. After reading this, we ask that you consider how much you practice, then ponder how much you spend on eBay for that special piece of gear. What Tele myths I'd like to see on "Myth Busters"Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:09 pm Anyone seen this show? They fully test myths that have been around forever. For example, a person being able to be shot out of a cannon etc. I'd bet 99% of Tele myths would be BUSTED. 1: Sonic differences between nitro/poly finishes 2: Lighter bodies producing better tone. 3: Straight neck grain-stronger neck and better tone. 4: Bigger necks=better tone/sustain. 5: Neck pocket tightness sonic test. 6: Blindfold test Alder/Ash bodied Telecaster sound differences. And so on, and so on, and so on.... In my opinion changing old strings to new would yield more discernable changes in tone than the above. Here is a response from non other than Ritchie Fliegler, Fender employee and guitar guy. Ritchie Fliegler Joined: 16 Mar 2003Posts: 54Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:41 am Mr. Fliegler with Mr. Rick Nielsen of "Cheap Trick" As part of what we do here at "work" we have done double blind tests on all of your questions, so with apologies to the real Myth-crew. 1: Sonic differences between nitro/poly finishes: This does not make as much difference as the inherent difference between any two guitars. (Note: We Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nightwatchman Posted October 25, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 I recently completed the installation of a set of L-290S pickups in my 2000 Mexican Standard (Artic White, Poplar bodied/Maple Neck) Stratocaster. I installed the volume treble bypass mods and wired as per your standard Strat schematic. After installation, I was immediately impressed with the sound of this guitar, which now possesses exciting tonal characteristics, articulation and clarity of individual notes and chords using your pickups. While apart, I leveled and polished the frets and adjusted the truss rod, and now this guitar sounds and plays very nice. The guitar originally sounded mediocre, at best (awful in the bridge mode actually), but now sounds very impressive in ALL switch positions, regardless of whether the amp settings are clean or overdriven. After a week or so of use with the new pickups, my ears have fortunately recovered from the "ice-pick-in-your-ears syndrome". I am in the engineering field and am admittedly picky, possessing high product, manufacturing and Q.C. expectations and I am really pleased with all aspects of your product. Additionally, your customer service is some of the best I have ever received, having spoken to you and Becky on a few occasions for answers to questions prior to installation. nw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Interesting post - remind me of this (taken from the John Suhr website): "The descriptions of tone are very subjective and can be misleading. Lets consider the primary tone generator! Many people don't want to hear it but it is very true. It is your hands..... I was never so convinced as one day listening to Ed Van Halen record at his studio. The sound was fat, articulate and every bit his signature tone. When I looked to see what he was playing I was stupefied to see a headless, woodless Steinberger. Not only that but when I checked out the guitar later, the strings were very rusty. The touch in your left and right hand technique can definitely make or break your tone. All things considered, one person sitting down with one amp, on one day, will come to tonal conclusions about different wood combinations. These are my personal opinions on how certain wood sound to me with my guitars and my amps and speakers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members satannica Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 To be honest, I've never really gone for the gear whore thing. I know that people do and they sound good, but I like my rig as it is. My most "boutique" piece is my Powerball. But I went through a lot of checking out and bothering music store owners before I got it! There are big differences in ash, alder and poplar! It depends what people want! I myself prefer alder, simply due to its tamable highs and sustain. Poplar is my second choice! It all depends what people want in their gear, but they're all right in that there is no substitute for a good practising reigime!!! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ancient Mariner Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 I'm sure that there is much truth in the article. I can remember sitting down in a large music shop for an afternoon, trying around 25 different strats before choosing the one that played 'best'. Apart from 1 paisley 70s re-issue the only external difference between them all was that half were blue/rosewood and half red/maple. I thought I could feel and hear distinct differences between them all and walked out with the one that I liked best. Rather like wine tasting, the differences ARE real enough, but sometimes the brain may need more cues than just taste or immediate hearing to spot them. A very key part of playing well for me is also feeling 'happy' with my gear. If I'm not happy then I don't play so well. It's (mostly) all in the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Echotraveler Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 BS... its all BS both the myths and the "explanations" .... you can summarize it all in one word "SUBJECTIVE" its is all subjective...the neck?? wtf?? isnt that simply about your preference?..... every guitar sounds different, they might be classified under a brand and model...myths are part of mojo.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matter-Eater Lad Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 ya I think some people get too into throwing money at it, I do it to an extent too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ExtraGum Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by nightwatchman Remember these are scientifically conducted, double-blind tests. The second you can see or guess what the differences are in what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JimH Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 You would have to define better tone. Is the heavy guitar "too bright", or does it "cut really well". The light guitar "mushy" or mellow"? It's all in your needs and expectations. Correct - so is the point theat YES these things do make a difference but whether that difference is prefferred is subjective? Obvious point really. (plus I do totally agree that different guitars of the same model and make are different so it's hard to attribute minor things to spec.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by Echotraveler BS... its all BS both the myths and the "explanations" .... you can summarize it all in one word "SUBJECTIVE" its is all subjective...the neck?? wtf?? isnt that simply about your preference?..... every guitar sounds different, they might be classified under a brand and model...myths are part of mojo.......... Not everything is - to a point, some guitars do just play and sound better than others, in exactly the same way as some players play and sound better than others. I wouldn't argue that subjectively some people might say I am better than Steve Vai, because everyone except my own mother would disagree (still i suppose that'd be my mother's subjective opinion so maybe you are on the money. ) IMHO it's just that some people that take this too far and forget the most important factor in great tone is excellent technique and not whether you've got a polly or nitro finish, or whether your guitar is made out of mahogany or flipping moon-rocks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Europa760 Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 they should do a mythbusters on affirmative action and catholic churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hare.29 Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by Knottyhed or whether your guitar is made out of mahogany or flipping moon-rocks... Dude, I totally want a moon rock guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by hare.29 Dude, I totally want a moon rock guitar. Actually I already have one and it sounds FRIGGING AWSOME!!! I think most of the tone comes from the unicorn horn tuning pegs though and the pixie dust I put in the control cavity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members k4df4l Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by nightwatchman Here's a pretty good article on Myths concerning guitar tonewoods, etc. Like much of the subject at hand, that's subjective and I would kinda disagree considering that appears about as scientific as coke vs pepsi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members walt0915 Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by ExtraGum It seems clear that there's a reason some guys become scientists, and some guys become guitar builders. Not a word of this article is "scientific", nor do these guys seem to understand what the scientific method is. Well, all they've done is post the results of the experiments - they didn't describe the experiments themselves. Discussion of the scientific method isn't relevant. Clearly they had a hypothesis and they tested it, and came to conclusions. Without the details of the experiments it IS hard to evalute the results, but at least on a couple of points they tried to minimize the number of variables being modified. In any event I don't find your criticism particularly useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onewhiteduck Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 I haven't read the whole thing yet, but maple vs. rosewood fretboards is a good example. I can't see how anybody truly "hears" a difference, since you're playing off the frets and not the actual wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shocker Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by onewhiteduck I haven't read the whole thing yet, but maple vs. rosewood fretboards is a good example. I can't see how anybody truly "hears" a difference, since you're playing off the frets and not the actual wood. Shhhhh. //S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Originally posted by walt0915 Well, all they've done is post the results of the experiments - they didn't describe the experiments themselves. Discussion of the scientific method isn't relevant. Clearly they had a hypothesis and they tested it, and came to conclusions. Without the details of the experiments it IS hard to evalute the results, but at least on a couple of points they tried to minimize the number of variables being modified.In any event I don't find your criticism particularly useful. Well you can't scientifically evaluate 'good tone', because it's not something you can measure. You can work out how many people can tell the difference between rose-wood fretboards/maple fretboards and tube/vs. solid state etc. I'll hold my hands up and say with the first I wouldn't stand a chance and with the second I'd have no idea unless the tube amp was slightly cranked and the SS amp was trying to replicate that sound (and then I may get it wrong). Pile on effects or play totally clean and I'd not have a clue. Having said that, when I actually play through a tube amp it does seem more 'responsive' to my playing and pick attack - but perhaps that is cos I expect it to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StringSnapse Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 How about how wood "breathes" . Explain how the molecules and solid walls that make up the molecules that make up wood end up "breathing" . I buy how some wood can vibrate more but not the breathing of wood and how laquer makes it breath better . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Originally posted by StringSnapse How about how wood "breathes" . Explain how the molecules and solid walls that make up the molecules that make up wood end up "breathing" . I buy how some wood can vibrate more but not the breathing of wood and how laquer makes it breath better . Wood is poreous and air will dry it out over time... hence why an unfinished neck is likely to warp. I guess maybe laquer is not completely air tight and therefore the wood continues to cure after applying laquer.... some people think that this additional curing will make the guitar sound better over time; one reason why some people think vintage instruments sound better - that's my understanding anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members walfordr Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Wood is not that solid, it's a bundle of hollow fibres with lots of air in them. These can absorb moisture from the air and cause the wood to rot. The whole purpose of the finish on a bit of wood is to prevent this so if someone tells me that a particular sort of finish allows the wood to breath then I say I don't want it on my guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Originally posted by walfordr Wood is not that solid, it's a bundle of hollow fibres with lots of air in them. These can absorb moisture from the air and cause the wood to rot. The whole purpose of the finish on a bit of wood is to prevent this so if someone tells me that a particular sort of finish allows the wood to breath then I say I don't want it on my guitar! ^^^^^^ What he said +1000. I like the idea of nitro fading, but i like the care-free idea of Poly better, and IIRC thin Poly would let the guitar resonate as much as a Nitro finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StringSnapse Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Originally posted by Knottyhed Wood is poreous and air will dry it out over time... hence why an unfinished neck is likely to warp. I guess maybe laquer is not completely air tight and therefore the wood continues to cure after applying laquer.... some people think that this additional curing will make the guitar sound better over time; one reason why some people think vintage instruments sound better - that's my understanding anyway. alot of things are poreous , ceramics , cement , bone , they dont "breathe" . I think the "breathing" thing is also a holdover from acoustic guitars and how the tops vibrate and somehow that got carried over to solid bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Originally posted by StringSnapse alot of things are poreous , ceramics , cement , bone , they dont "breathe" . I think the "breathing" thing is also a holdover from acoustic guitars and how the tops vibrate and somehow that got carried over to solid bodies? They all dry out over time though due to the circulation of air... just like wood and as far as I know that's what people are talking about when they say "allow the wood to breathe". I'm not saying I want my guitar to "breathe", or that any additional drying that takes place after i've brought my instrument is desirable. Firstly you'd hope the wood has been properly cured in controlled conditions - so a finish that allows it to "breathe" may result in more moisture creeping in, in the uncontrolled conditions it'll find itself in, and if the instrument wood hasn't been properly cured, then further drying may result in warping and cracking... which again I wouldn't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StringSnapse Posted October 26, 2005 Members Share Posted October 26, 2005 Originally posted by Knottyhed They all dry out over time though due to the circulation of air... just like wood and as far as I know that's what people are talking about when they say "allow the wood to breathe". I'm not saying I want my guitar to "breathe", or that any additional drying that takes place after i've brought my instrument is desirable. Firstly you'd hope the wood has been properly cured in controlled conditions - so a finish that allows it to "breathe" may result in more moisture creeping in, in the uncontrolled conditions it'll find itself in, and if the instrument wood hasn't been properly cured, then further drying may result in warping and cracking... which again I wouldn't want. you just need to get a good coat of sweat and grim on your neck then its safe . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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