One "Guru" who has it right

[richardmac]

OK, I've been bashing the "new music biz gurus" here, but I'm not stupid... I know that the old ways are dying and fans are different and you'd better have some different and modern strategies. Check out this article - 6 Marketing Insights from Topspin - to be totally honest, even though this is the same stuff everyone else is saying, they put the pieces together in a way that makes total sense to me. To the point where if I were serious about music and not just a hobbyist, I might try this method. I might do it anyway.

 

Yes, this demonstrates my wishy-washy nature about this topic. Can't help it. I live in a state of confusion (Florida.)

 

Interested in what other people think of the article. I bet no one rides the fence. They'll either say "This is the future" or they'll say "More snake oil new music biz guru talk." Personally, I'm buying the snake oil. Hell, nothing else works.

[shades990]

Well of course that page has good advice, it's just pretty obvious advice.

 

Get your music out there, play regular shows, and regularly update web content for fans.

[daddymack]

yeah, sorry, Rich, nothing really new there...basically the same old schtick.

Too many of the new biz gurus think social media is the key, and I fail to see it; I think social media is a fad already on the wane (the demise of MicePace is the perfect harbinger of doom), but I'm certian thousands of people will disagree....for now

I liked the 'do something small once a week, something big once a month', but honestly, I think you should never do anything small if you can do something big instead

 

I still think the low end of the classic model is the right path: Play out, play often, build a following, release music, sell at show and at website, make money, fund the project, play more, play more, release more, play more....shoot the video, upload to youtube, play more...there just is no longer a 'top end' to link it to...

[richardmac]

Nope. You guys are both missing the important parts. Like don't try selling ANYTHING until you have 2,500 people following you online. The overall concept has been said before but the devil is in the details and that article had plenty of them in one spot.

 

Social media as a fad? Sorry, no. Facebook is HUGE. Way bigger than MySpace ever dreamed of being.

[sventvkg]

Yes Ian knows what he is talking about. It's a new world and a new business. Check out this presentation: http://www.topspinmedia.com/2011/02/getting-practical-a-step-by-step-guide-to-building-an-online-marketing-plan-that-works-ians-presentation-from-new-music-seminar-los-angeles-february-2011/?awesm=t.opsp.in_POaB&utm_content=awesm-bookmarklet&utm_medium=t.opsp.in-email&utm_source=direct-t.opsp.in

[daddymack]

let's look at all this again in a year...something will come along an bump FaceBook...the internet is constantly evolving, and the user base is changing...how and for what it is being used today may change radically over the next several months....

My biggest bug though is tha 'no merch sales until you have 2500 people following online'...really?

Unfortunately, that concept falls apart for some genres, where on-line presence/social media is not the main means of reaching the following....again, there is no 'one size fits all' approach....and these things, like the internet, are changing all the time.

I just don't see that as realistic, though ... without having the ability to sell merch from the git-go, where is the revenue stream? We funded our projects (recording, website, etc.) from tips and CD sales...without any 'social media', except an e-mail list. If we had been doing that solely OOP, it would not have happened.

[richardmac]

Couple of things I agree and disagree with. If we come back in a year, Facebook will still be dominating. Put money on it. Just because MySpace rose and fell does not mean everything like it will follow the same quick flameout. Ask Apple if anyone still uses the iTunes music store (the answer is yes.) I think another thing to really look at is the idea of what type of fan base you're trying to build. I think the idea of the article is in building something big enough and spread out enough to have a shot at an actual career, and I like the idea that you need to build a large online following. I also agree that for some genres, this is not the way to go and it won't make sense. But in this day and age, if an artist can't record for little to no money and get a good product, they're screwed, because there are plenty of artists who CAN do it and will do it, and they are the competition. Same with putting up a web page, getting their music available on iTunes, and so on and so forth.

 

What I still question is the online content and the communications between artist and fans. Putting out a free song now and again is fine, having contests, good idea, etc. But it's easy to cross the line and assume that just because someone likes your music they give a damn about you otherwise. They might, but they probably don't. That type of relationship takes years and several albums, usually. I think that gets forgotten.

 

The rulebook is being rewritten. Some of the new rulebook is utter bull{censored}. Some is bull{censored} that sounds good and reasonable. Some of it sounds like bull{censored} but will turn out to be correct. And I will definitely admit that I can't much tell any of it apart right now!

[richardmac]

Oh, one more thing. As "right" as this particular guru may have it, he did eff up one important thing. Step one talks about how you should make music and take the music to where fans are, and make it easy and fun for fans to share how much they love the music. WHAT FANS????? This is back to that old point about how the gurus like to conveniently leave out the one teeny little detail that is actually the toughest part, ie gaining fans.

[sventvkg]

Couple of things I agree and disagree with. If we come back in a year, Facebook will still be dominating. Put money on it. Just because MySpace rose and fell does not mean everything like it will follow the same quick flameout. Ask Apple if anyone still uses the iTunes music store (the answer is yes.) I think another thing to really look at is the idea of what type of fan base you're trying to build. I think the idea of the article is in building something big enough and spread out enough to have a shot at an actual career, and I like the idea that you need to build a large online following. I also agree that for some genres, this is not the way to go and it won't make sense. But in this day and age, if an artist can't record for little to no money and get a good product, they're screwed, because there are plenty of artists who CAN do it and will do it, and they are the competition. Same with putting up a web page, getting their music available on iTunes, and so on and so forth. What I still question is the online content and the communications between artist and fans. Putting out a free song now and again is fine, having contests, good idea, etc. But it's easy to cross the line and assume that just because someone likes your music they give a damn about you otherwise. They might, but they probably don't. That type of relationship takes years and several albums, usually. I think that gets forgotten. The rulebook is being rewritten. Some of the new rulebook is utter bull{censored}. Some is bull{censored} that sounds good and reasonable. Some of it sounds like bull{censored} but will turn out to be correct. And I will definitely admit that I can't much tell any of it apart right now!

 

Ya know I follow what certain artists and other people in this business say and do because I can learn from it. I really don't care about their personal lives though but there ARE some fans out there who are into knowing about the artists and when I really think about it, I like to know about the artist's life and their struggle..Again, because i'm a fan but also because i'm an artist as well and you can always pick up insight.

[sventvkg]

 

Oh, one more thing. As "right" as this particular guru may have it, he did eff up one important thing. Step one talks about how you should make music and take the music to where fans are, and make it easy and fun for fans to share how much they love the music. WHAT FANS????? This is back to that old point about how the gurus like to conveniently leave out the one teeny little detail that is actually the toughest part, ie gaining fans.

 

 

No no no, again they aren't speaking to artists who do not have enough appeal to gain fans unfortunately. And again, this means MOST of them and in this world good isn't good enough either. You have to be VERY GOOD...So they assume you do play gigs and you are VERY VERY GOOD and have the potential to gain fans, thus you set yourself up for the influx if you don't have them already. Pretty straight forward really. Trust me, this is what they mean. I'm around these people in Nashville and I understand the mentality.

[richardmac]

I would agree with that, but here is my point: In order to achieve "success," whether that be making a living or just having a large following who care about your music, there are basically three things you have to do:

1. Create fantastic music (as you said)

2. Develop and build a loyal fan base

3. Market to your fan base and keep them happy

 

1 and 2 are extremely difficult - 3 is by far the easiest. And so all you ever seem to read about is 3. I admit that 1 does not fall into the Music Biz area, but 2 most certainly does and it's an area where many artists really, really struggle and could really use some great advice - like step by step advice. Instead we get step by step advice (even in this linked article) for #3. OK, now that you've written great songs and have a nice big fan base... yeah, I think I can figure out the rest. Which is why I had, in my other post, something similar to this:

Steps to Success:

1. Write fantastic material

2. ?

3. Market to your large fan base!

 

If we took a poll of the 20 or 30 regulars in this forum, how many of us could say we have 1000 loyal fans? Very few of us.

 

OK, yes, to be blunt about it, the hardest part is step 1. One reason it's hard is that music is so subjective and one man's trash is another man's treasure for sure. Because your music can be bad, so-so, great, or really great, and you're going to have people tell you that you suck and others that will tell you that you're great and you're never going to REALLY know where you're at. And then you get into the whole art vs. sales thing.

 

I have to say that I REALLY enjoy everyone's perspective though. I'm here to try to learn and put the pieces together. I'm a hobbyist and I'm not super serious about all this jazz - I sorta want to be more than a hobbyist and I sorta don't care. But I'm very serious about writing and recording music. All the different perspectives here are very interesting and very valuable.

[sventvkg]

Good points Richard..The only thing I can say in regard to number two is after you have written great music that a majority of people agree is great, you have to get out there. Tour your ass off, put up Youtube Vids, twitter, facebook etc. I would say convert fans one at a time touring your region is the only way I know how to do it as an indie. Still the old fashioned way and still the best way. Hit the van and play anywhere and everywhere and people will start to take notice. You do local press and radio as well. This takes YEARS, not months. Now, if yo have marketing money behind you like a major label, they can get you on TV, press and the radio and that can garner you fans instantly that would have taken you years to convert on your own but it takes money. Norah Jones was a nobody before she got together with Jesse Harris in NY to cut Demos of his tunes. The record company put that {censored} out and she was a smash success and garnered millions of fans pretty quickly.

 

So as an indie, you either slog it out, play locally and regionally, convert them one at a time at your shows, getting email addresses, mailing lists, etc..Build it up organically. Or you try to get a major behind you but in both cases you have to be excellent at what ya do!

 

Richard, in your case as a singer songwriter there is a circuit of sorts around the country of venues that cater to that genre. You would be playing locally doing what I said but you would branch out to doing those bigger profile venues regionally. In fact, Danny Barnes has a great article about how to make a living as a musician that everyone here should read. He says basically you gotta get out of town and only play in your own backyard once or twice a year. Anyway some of these venues are: The Evening Muse in Charlotte, Jammin Java in Vienna, VA, Eddie's Attic in Atlanta, Space in Evanston, IL, Hotel Cafe in LA, Saine Rocke in Hermosa Beach,CA, The Basement, 3rd and Lindsley and others in Nashville, The Living Room, Arlene's Grocery and lots of others in NYC, Hotel Utah in SF, Club Passim in Boston, The Bitter End, NYC, White Eagle, Portland, and the Grey Eagle in Asheville, NJ...Lots of others too everywhere. The point is, you develop and then you get a small tour of these types of places regionally and just branch out from there. I've done this before and played a lot of these places and it was the fastest way for me to develop a fanbase. I plan to start touring regionally again most likely in the fall when we get settled in Nashville a bit as a family and I have 2 albums that should be done.

 

Point is, there IS an ESTABLISHED road to successfully building a fanbase but it's really hard work and you HAVE TO WORK IT, lose some money and if you are lucky, break even in the beginning. I would suggest going out on the weekends if I were you because you have a full time job. Start out in Tampa, and hit Orlando, Jax, Tallahassee, Atlanta, B-Ham, Charleston...I know and follow a bunch of singer songwriters who are doing this plus house concerts, and after a couple tours, are making a living..Because they are very good and work their asses off!! They sell records, Merch, do press, radio, work the {censored} out of social networking, blog, twitter, and drive their asses off! They took the chance and made it happen. This is the BEST TIME EVER to be a talented artist who wants to work that system because you can't be flash in the pan or mediocre. You have to be really good and bring it to get gigs in these places and gain a fanbase. The South E is a GREAT singer songwriter circuit to start out in and i've played a lot of those places.

 

Anyway, check out Jay Nash, Tony Lucca Matt Duke, and the venues I mentioned where you can check other singer songwriters. You can look at where they are playing and start to get a sense of how they are doing it. Then Develop your own plan and imitate the steps the other songwriters have taken That should get ya started:)

 

PS..I almost forgot. This applies to singer songwriter soloists. I don't know much about band touring but I would be hard pressed to try to figure out how a band could even make it financially at all touring these days. There still is NO SUBSTITUTE for touring to gain fans who will support you.

[flatfinger]

Face who ?????

 

 

The only constant in life is change.

 

http://20smoney.com/2010/09/27/the-future-of-making-money-online-part-1/

 

 

 

 

 

First observation – nothing stays the same, including the web It would be silly of us to think that the internet or the world wide web would stay the same forever just because it’s some new frontier of communication and interaction. Everything changes, nothing stays the same. Why would the web be any different? Just like people thought the dominant railroad company 100 years ago couldn’t be toppled, and how AT&T dominated the telephone industry.

 

 

 

 

Second observation – The web is becoming less reliable and has more junk I’ve been actually talking about this to an extent for a while. The world wide web is being filled with more and more junk. The content is getting watered down, and thus the traffic is getting watered down. If the traffic gets watered down, then advertisers won’t pay as much for it. This is a game changing concept for anyone doing business on the web. The article discusses it as follows: Web audiences have grown ever larger even as the quality of those audiences has shriveled, leading advertisers to pay less and less to reach them. That, in turn, has meant the rise of junk-shop content providers — like Demand Media — which have determined that the only way to make money online is to spend even less on content than advertisers are willing to pay to advertise against it. This further cheapens online content, makes visitors even less valuable, and continues to diminish the credibility of the medium.

 

[daddymack]

Thank you, ff, another view that what works today won't necessarily even exist tomorrow...

[richardmac]

sventvkg, I think that was a really good post. Good advice. And it points out very specifically to me that I'm not meant to be a full time musician. I have local musician friends who just sort of shake their heads at me because I'm not out there busting my ass. I don't know what I want, really. I'm a hobbyist. I do, however, think it would be fun to plan some gigs and go up the east coast some summer. Not impossible.

[sventvkg]

And that is not a bad thing Richard. As long as you have fun and you enjoy making the best music you can make and do what makes you happy. That's the name of the game really. And you're right about what you said in the other post about the Guru's being frauds. I would say that the real deal is that most musician's music is not up to par. In fact from playing songwriter nights in Nashville I can tell you it's 90% or so even there that don't pass muster. That's the same ratio I have found all over the world.

 

Regarding these Guru's who want you to pay for something they are selling that's where I turn it off because in truth it's such a new ball game out there these self proclaimed guru's don't know any more than anyone else.

[richardmac]

LOL - 90% in N sounds right because in Tampa it's more like 95%. And none of them read this forum but if they do I'm not going to bury myself and say who the 5% is! Most of the musicians I know are great, friendly people, though. They're more like a support group than anything else. I can relate. We need a support group. Hell that's really what this place here is. Hello, my name is Richard, and I'm a songwriter.

 

I believe it can be done (making a living via original music) but just like it was a {censored}ty path back in the 70's and 80's, it's a {censored}ty path now. You can't pursue the "American Dream" (steady job, family, house, retirement, ie stability) and pursue being an original full time musician. They have always been two different paths. Of course the good news is that anyone can be a songwriter on the side - no one is stopping any one (no "good music" police.) And the technology now to create music and share it is awesome.

 

And this is an area where the picture has really gotten muddy (I like the mix of metaphors - it somehow fits.) At first guys like me saw the Internet as a way to circumvent the old system - to cheat it. Because under the OLD system, you had the American Dream or you had being a broke ass musician and hoping that things somehow lined up right. But suddenly... you can make your own CD, you can distribute it internationally, AND you can keep a huge chunk of the profits. You could, in theory, be the next Steely Dan/Alan Parsons Project, to use an old analogy - you could record music and sell it without bothering to tour. Which meant you could have that stable job and have that music career. Win/win. Only problem was that illegal file sharing combined with a huge glut of bad amateur music killed the idea before it got rolling.

 

But it was fool's gold all along, really. Because that twenty-something at the bar is NOT checking you out... she's trying to decide if your wife dressed you and has no taste or if you dressed yourself. And we have boxes for different ages - don't try to sing the blues if you're 18, and don't try to sing about sex if you're 55. Even though an 18 year old can have the blues and you can have sex up until you die thanks to a little blue pill. Welcome to America, home of the Box. In high school if you're not good looking you can't have feelings and you're a loser and our society practically condones it. We are effed up in so many ways. I used to work at a high school and one time the Principal came over the intercom and said something along the lines of "these are the best times of your life." What a crock of {censored}. If that were true, one third of the population would shoot themselves when they graduated. My senior year I was the class clown, but I couldn't wait to leave.

 

In some societies the hip/cool people ARE the older people because they are smart and experienced. Not here! We don't cast our elderly aside on an iceberg. We just expect them to sit home and watch game shows. Which is just as bad.

 

Back on point, I believe it is only a matter of time before the majority of people decide that FREE is the way to go... the young folks will do it because the gurus tell them that it's the correct path, and the older folks like me will do it because we finally get it through our thick skulls that the old music biz is truly dead, and when push comes to shove we'd rather have 1,000 people download our music and enjoy it than sit around in our spare bedroom angry at a world that doesn't see or appreciate our "genius."

 

Taking music TOO seriously can kill your love of it if you are not careful. Letting music define you is very dangerous. If we can lighten up and make it fun, keep it fun, we can enjoy it. When I'm 70 years old I hope I'm writing funny songs about little blue pills.

[RickGoetz]

 

Oh, one more thing. As "right" as this particular guru may have it, he did eff up one important thing. Step one talks about how you should make music and take the music to where fans are, and make it easy and fun for fans to share how much they love the music. WHAT FANS????? This is back to that old point about how the gurus like to conveniently leave out the one teeny little detail that is actually the toughest part, ie gaining fans.

 

 

In his defense you can't teach someone to have a product that people care about. You can teach people how to expose their music to the best of their ability given their resources but at a certain point you either have a product (recorded music or live) that people care about and pass on to their friends or you don't. The rest of the trick seems to be staying in the game long enough until your product gets to that point...

 

As for old people - couldn't agree more - you have to check out How TV ruined your life - The Lifecycle

 

As for Guru-ism in general... I hope I don't fall into the category -I work with musicians for a living but I don't consider myself a guru. I can tell you that the week that The Number one album in the country sold 42,000 records I got an email from a music marketing company that said "Watch this video and learn how to sell 200,000 CDs guaranteed"... I threw up in my mouth a little.

[richardmac]

 

I can tell you that the week that The Number one album in the country sold 42,000 records I got an email from a music marketing company that said "Watch this video and learn how to sell 200,000 CDs guaranteed"... I threw up in my mouth a little.

 

 

LOL! That right there is funny. I think, for sure, that the only people who will make a living at music in the future are the ones who are hardcore serious about it - those willing to put music first and life second. There will be exceptions such as the tween artists that come out of the Disney Crap Factory, but most artists will be doing it the hard way. My hat is off to them. I just hope it doesn't turn the music biz into one big version of a telethon... c'mon, we need you to call in with your donation. I'm sick of bands begging me for money and trying to sell me at every turn. Maybe THAT is why I like the whole freemium thing. Leave me alone... if I love what you do, I'll buy your stuff, trust me.

 

And no, you don't fall into that category. Personally, I always appreciate your perspective.

[RickGoetz]

Thanks for that. I'd hate to be thought of in that other vein. And yes - the band begging is tough... It was even worse though when the occasional major label band was signing their acts up for kickstarter (whaaa? Fire 2 of the 18 Sr. VPs for {censored}'s sake).

[AVisme]

LOL! That right there is funny. I think, for sure, that the only people who will make a living at music in the future are the ones who are hardcore serious about it - those willing to put music first and life second.

Don't forget the pure songwriters...the people who aren't out there performing, but are making the music that stars perform. The biggest money (unless you own the record company) still goes to the holder of the copyright.

[richardmac]

You know, as a side topic, I have little faith in the pure songwriters. I think that too much music today that is written for the stars is written brick by brick, very calculated, very scrutinized, and very formula. In a way it always has been, I guess. I think that is why I still prefer the artists who write their own stuff like Imogen Heap or Adrianne. But yes, you're right - the smart songwriter is probably the one writing hits for other people.

[flatfinger]

I think a non-performing songwriter used to make the most from sales of recordings.(mechanical licensing) Now of course that's been reduced. There is still sync for TV and movies , but that usually is either for something of classic status ( for instance , the end of the first ShreK movie had "I'm a believer" and Neil Diamond got $$ for something he penned in the sixty's!) or ; allot of shows pay very little for unknown back ground mood setting stuff....

 

 

 

I'm not sure you can qualify whether a songwriter is going to be able to produce upper echelon quality songs by his performance status. And sometimes it just takes a small tweak to make a average song take flight .. ( that's something producers used to bring to the table ...objectivity when the artist was to close to things...) sometimes it's just dropping unnecessary measures or changing the tempo.....

 

There is a song on Elton John's yellow brick road album called "Grey seal" . I have a previous album with that song on it and the tempo dragged and the drummer just didn't have a pocket going at all . A suck version turned into another great song on the later album ! There are lots of variables......

[flatfinger]

Here's an interesting comment from after this article Richard;

 

 

Gregoryno6 (URL) on Feb 20, 12:11 AM said: @dyatron: Popular music was an entirely different beast a few decades ago. It was understood that the best singers and performers weren't necessarily the best songwriters, and vice versa. Each side brought something to the music. Then the singer-songwriter came along and since then pop has been in a decline. Yes, there are a few of exceptional talent - Scott Walker (his early albums) and Al Stewart both feature in my collection - but the majority of bands performing their own material are dishing up crud. Buy an album of ten songs, maybe one or two are first-class and another one or two are pretty good. The rest... Some performers argue there's more 'integrity' in performing your own material. There's certainly more money in it: songwriting credits. Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/these-charts-explain-the-real-death-of-the-music-industry-2011-2#ixzz1EZMQLNV0

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-charts-explain-the-real-death-of-the-music-industry-2011-2

 

 

 

And another morsel here.....

 

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118029386

 

 

 

And, as it was before Elvis Pres-ley and the Beatles took the stage, the professional songwriter -- in a new-millennium incarnation as songwriter-producer -- dominated as a commercial force. Listeners snapped up songs by Katy Perry, Ke$ha, B.o.B., Lady Gaga, Cee Lo Green and Mike Posner, but Dr. Luke, Red-One and Bruno Mars were the true powers behind these musical thrones.

 

[RickGoetz]

Even though I'm a stupid farging spambot, I appreciate that you go to the trouble to quote me, so the moderators at your forum have to do twice the work to get rid of me.

MeadowHenry is either a bot or responding to questions I can't see.

 

An interesting debate is going on about Topspin in the comments here:

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