Members chili1222 Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 hi guys, i have got couple of questions wanna ask regarding to the home vocal recording, hope u guys can give me some clues.. basically, in most of the songs, the vocal dynamic difference between the verse and chrous parts are so big. so when i come to record, i usually record the verse with closer distance to the mic (3 to 4 inches) and with higher input level. for the chrous, i will record it a bit far away (6 to 10 inches) and set the input level lower.. and here is the problem when i come to mix... i always find so hard to mix these 2 parts together... as they are recorded in 2 totally different levels and distances... the ambience (reverb) recorded are also different. i tried with a compressor or simular tools... it helps a bit.. but still cant get it right, so, is there any tips on how to mix these 2 much smoothly?? especially the control of the reverb...thanks... thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Def_Pearl_Pilot Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 Not that I'm a pro but I can tell you what I know. I think your biggest problem is when you record at 10". I think that is REALLY far away to be from a mic. I'm sure that it would most likely sound pretty bad. I'm using a U87 and for the lower volume passages, I turn up the gain on the preamp. For the louder passages, I turn down the preamp and maybe cut back at most 2". I always want to have myself around 4" away or less from the mic. The other thing that I do is also record the verses and choruses in separate tracks. This way, it makes it much easier to mix due to the relative volume of the parts in each track. I then send the output of the tracks to an aux input where I apply compression and reverb, etc. You can also use a compressor to level out the performance. I do use compression but after I've recorded the parts. You can also try using a dynamic mic so it is not as sensitive to volume. You can also try to deaden your room a bit if you are getting to much reverb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 What sort of style are you doing? There's always voice lessons. NO, WAIT! You could record in seperate passes, verses then chorus, setting up your input gain for each section, so that you can keep a consistent distance from the mic. And if you have too much room sound, go with a deader room (as suggested) or make sure your microphone is a hyper-cardioid (or at least cardioid). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chili1222 Posted October 20, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 thanks guys, i actually did and know exactly what you guys suggested.. recorded part by part into seperated track, send to aux track to edit, minimize the compressor when recorded, use different sound proof pad around... the reason i have to record in that far distance is beause the mic is too hot CAD M9 (tube mic)... even i turn the input volume at the lowest, it will clip when sing it loud, thats why i have to record at that distance... maybe i better switch to a less sensitive mic then... cheers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 10" from an LDC in the studio for vocals is definitely NOT too far away, unless your vocal room totally sucks, inwhich case you should use another room or modify the one you're in. Don't vary the distance unless you are singing much louder in one section than the other. Use the volume automation in your DAW to control the levels between verse and chorus, and maybe a bit of light compression if you have a good comp and know how to use it. Volume automation is, while more time consuming, infinitely better than compression IMHO, and combining the two makes creating a killer vocal track, assuming the track is decent to begin with, pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 10" from an LDC in the studio for vocals is definitely NOT too far away, unless your vocal room totally sucks, inwhich case you should use another room or modify the one you're in. Don't vary the distance unless you are singing much louder in one section than the other. Use the volume automation in your DAW to control the levels between verse and chorus, and maybe a bit of light compression if you have a good comp and know how to use it. Volume automation is, while more time consuming, infinitely better than compression IMHO, and combining the two makes creating a killer vocal track, assuming the track is decent to begin with, pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Def_Pearl_Pilot Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 In a room, I've gotten poor results that way. The quality of what is captured is just not as good. It doesn't seem to capture all the frequencies/fullness as well. I was using "good" equiment too. U87 -> Great River NV2. The room was definitely the factor here. In a vocal booth, I've gotten bettter results. But I didn't have to turn up the preamp either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 I have some vocalists that have very good microphone technique ("workin' the mic"), and they'll do a take in which they're gettin' right up on the mic and then back off on the loud/high notes, sometimes more than ten inches. Ten inches is definitely not too far for a mic. You can get awesome vocal sound from even farther away than ten inches. To blend it, I'll do a number of different things, including performing volume and reverb and delay automation in Pro Tools. Seems to work. I actually will often kick up the delay a little bit in the chorus. If you are having that much trouble with the gain staging, sure, go ahead and record the chorus and the verses separately. But what you might consider doing is still singing through the whole song through with each pass in the hopes that you get more of a sense of continuity, even if you eventually comp the whole thing together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 You probably have an untreated and / or fairly "live" sounding room. Maybe get some quilted packing blankets and hang them on mic stands that you have on three sides of the mic - basically making a little "fort" around the mic position to soak up some of the room ambience. Then try a bit - not too much - of compression. Just enough that you're taking maybe 3 dB off the peaks / loudest parts. One trick that works for some singers is to position one foot slightly in front of the other - kind of like you would if you were walking and taking a fairly small step. If you're singing softly, put your weight more on the front foot, which will lean you inwards towards the mic a bit, and when belting, put more of your weight on the rear foot, which pulls you back away from it a bit. "Working" the mic - getting closer when singing soft, and further when belting, is something highly experienced singers do fairly naturally. Two things you have to watch out for with varying distances is the change in tonality due to proximity effect if you get in too close (less than 6" or so), and room ambience if you get too far away - especially in a very live sounding room. But if you're moving between 6 - 12" from the mic, that's usually not going to be a big problem, especially if you've deadened the room's acoustics a bit. Also, be careful you don't swing from side to side, as many cardioid mics change tonality off axis - especially at close range. With a 2:1 or maybe 3:1 ratio on the compressor, and knocking 3 dB or so off the peaks (loudest parts), and with the mic preamp set so it's not overloading on the loudest parts, you should have plenty of gain available to capture the soft sections without the quiet parts being overly noisy... especially if you "work" the mic a bit... unless you're an extremely dynamic singer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members littledog Posted October 22, 2006 Members Share Posted October 22, 2006 Sometimes you can run into a similar problem with snare tracks. On certain sections of the song, the drummer is using a side stick, and on other sections an open snare hit. You may find that the EQ, reverb settings, compression, etc. are completely different depending on whether it is a side stick section or an open snare part. You could solve this by automating everything, but sometimes I find splitting the track into two seperate tracks is even easier. I put all the side stick sections on snare track "a", and the open snare sections on snare track "b". Now it is very easy to set the volumes, EQ, compression, effects, etc. for the side stick without in any way affecting the open snare, and visa versa. You could easily do the same thing in your situation. Cut all the choruses from the main vocal track and paste them onto their own "chorus only" track. Now you can deal with each section seperately and not have to worry about one affecting the other. It's a whole lot easier than trying to find a compression setting that will eliminate the differences between the sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chili1222 Posted October 22, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2006 thanks.. i think i got quite a lot of new ideas from you guys.. i will try that out... cheers... thank you so much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chili1222 Posted October 22, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2006 thanks.. i think i got quite a lot of new ideas from you guys.. i will try that out... cheers... thank you so much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by gsHarmony I agree that 10" is probably not too far. Originally posted by gsHarmony I almost always tracks vocals at 8-12". OK so make up my mind then.....as where I come from 10" is exactly in the middle of 8" and 12", making 10" your average distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members littledog Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Now I'm confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Probably the word "probably"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Gotcha. I was just guessing as to what was causing the discrepancy of opinion, but "probably" was probably it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members littledog Posted October 24, 2006 Members Share Posted October 24, 2006 ...or you could just explain it by the fact that some people are basically crabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D Charles Posted October 24, 2006 Members Share Posted October 24, 2006 Some people just like to start controversy (pissing contests). If they say something useful use it, if they don't, ignore it. Chili, what I would do if I were you is put a mic like across the room and sing the song all the way through. Is your verse very quiet and your chorus knocking your socks off? Any song you record you should be able to do live in a room with no gear so some adjustments might have to be made here and there. One trick that no has mentioned is say you find your cool tone verses proximity affect at 3" from the mic. When you need to belt to hit the high note, just turn your head around 30 degrees. Sing beside the mic on the left or right. You'll still get the volume and emotion, but you won't have the air and pressure building up straight into the mic. Try it, it works! Just don't think gear is always the answer. What's in front of the mic is so much more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chili1222 Posted October 25, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2006 cheers, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyX Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 I cant believe what i am reading! I get right in the mic on all my vocals as i do leads and harmonies. on mix down it makes it easy to mix because they're all the same if its a good signal it should sound great! and be easy to mix equally. NEVER record with fx! save it for the mix-down as u might find another fx u might like better if u've loaded it with diff reverbs & fx forget it u cant change it its in there. mix-down is and always will be an endless situation. recording is the easy part slam those leds/needles so there is no room for noise saturation and every signal will be strong and easy to deal with. i dont care what mic u use. thats just to get you to buy expensive stuff. dont get me wrong i dont suggest going out and buying a 9.95 radio shack mic however, its been done. its all in what you know and how u use it, they have home recording books that are great... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyX Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 all i suggest is u get each signal strong without grainyness (before distortion) and u should be fine. once u get the input right turn it off (if u have that option) and listen strictly to the playback, that way u will know u are hot and no grainyness. record everything dry. and while listening to the playback (do NOT use headphones during set up as they tend to make u turn up the bass) add some fx to your gtrs. so it sounds they way u want to hear the gtrs (only on the playback tho, so it doesnt get recorded)... lay your instrument parts first.(do a scratch vocal) that way you can get your vocals set ... then use your headphones to sing so u dont get the music in the mic but dont change the vocal mic once u get it set on playback, just get in that bad boy and get it strong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyX Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 then when u do your mix u can experiment with many fx and processors the master is the most important recording. the mix-down is whatever u want to do with it and when a new fx comes out u can try that too and do a re-mix.if u add fx u cant change it u have to re-do yet another master, waste of time there! mouthful there *laffs... but all fact and truth! If u make a mistake then go back to correct it you have then made 2 mistakes....If u hesitate, you're late! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyX Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Mic technic is a bliss! yes back up when u feel a belt comin on but practice it a few times and watch your levels... live is no big deal, unless u dont have anyone to gain ride ... and yes u could turn or just buy a pop filter... 15.00. and every mic has a proximity effect. I have a tape of a band and from all this learning and technic u cant tell on this tape which song was the studio version as opposed to the live versions... they have learned well! Local band no one big time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by JohnnyX and every mic has a proximity effect. Inbcorrect, omnis do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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