just trying to get started

[Rollo10AD]

Gee, I hope novices are welcome here...

 

I'm ready to move beyond writing (MIDI-ing) my music on BIAB, Finale, and Freestyle, and now want to start a project studio FOR UNDER $1000, play/program everything myself (guitar, keys, bass, drum/percussion programming, synth horns and strings), record, burn to CD, and send it out there via TAXI or whatever.

 

I WAS thinking of a portable studio set-up (Tascam, Fostex, Boss, etc.), but have been advised against it by two musicanly associates, who instead recommended a computer-based ProTools/Performer/Cubase path. I was warned against wasting time with the portastudio learning curve, because when I really got going with things I'd have to convert to the ProTools-type paradigm anyway, since it's the standard way of operating.

 

Some help with this dilemma?

 

Oh, yeah, I'm mainly-but-by-no-means-exclusively into jazz/funk/R&B Brecker Bros-type stuff, but also have commercial/jingle/soundtrack/film scoring ambitions, along with an interest in songwriting collaboration possibilities.

[rocksld]

hi Rolo,

all are welcome!

First of all I'd have to say you should start with your budget and research what you can get with your money. What ever you decide try to keep in mind as you start out that you want to build up your recording rig as you go, so leave room for growth if possible. On the flip side, the porta studio's can achieve very good results and you can learn all of your recording chops on this for the least bang for your buck (In my opinion-and it's portable so you can go out and record friends at rehersal for YOUR practice at engineering and mixing)

When you try to start with a DAW, you are now bringing your computer into the mix and how beefed up it is. You can buy software that has endless possiblities, but unless your computer can even handle those options, this could be an issue and as for learning curve, some of them are tough.

 

As far as having to convert to pro tools anyway, I don't think I agree with that. If you get to the point you want to take your recodings into a studio and have them mix it-- if you can convert to BWAV's, your good--I think some PT users can verify whether or not they can import BWAV's into their DAW.

 

Tracktion software is very CPU friendly and easy on the wallet with virtually no learning curve. Again, if you move into the software part of it, you will still need a decent interface.

 

Don't forget: mic's, cords, stands, Near field monitors, room treatment,etc.... There is ton's more but this is just to get you started.

 

Good luck, hope this helps

Rocksld

[UstadKhanAli]

I'm probably not gonna be much help here because I've never used those portable thingies. I think part of the learning curve is because those things typically have very small windows and are more difficult to edit or scroll through windows. I've made recordings as a musician with one of those, and the operator knew what he was doing, but I was amazed at all the scrolling through windows and how small the edit window was. I don't think I could do that, but then again, I'm used to a computer-based DAW with a huge screen.

 

But what you could do is go down to your music store and try and figure the things out and see if you feel comfortable on one or not, and then try and do the same on a computer-based DAW. Also, some of the portable devices can have some difficulty exporting their individual track files to computer-based DAWs, something that may or may not be an issue to you.

 

OTOH, those portable DAWs are really portable and generally relatively inexpensive, and come without the usual conflict and update headaches that one might get with a computer that is also supposed to get on the internet and figure out your taxes.

 

Is it important for you to have something that's portable?

 

Do you eventually want to move to a computer-based DAW (Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic, whatever)?

 

Welcome to the forums.

[Rollo10AD]

Thank you, rocksld and UstadKhanAli, for the very thoughtful input.

 

rocksld, everything you posted is EXACTLY what i had in mind. I thought it was a great idea to "learn the ropes" on a portastudio and leave the ProTools-type stuff to PROFESSIONAL audio guys at a real studio, if and when the time comes. After all, I'm trying to become the best COMPOSER I can be, not a professional AUDIO ENGINEER.

 

In other words, I just don't think I will have the time or the money to learn and build up a computer-based project studio, and besides, I'm lucky enough to know several people with contacts and access to real big-ass studios. So you have confirmed my leaning toward the portastudio approach.

 

Ustad, here's the thing: my one and only computer is an ancient desktop firmly situated on the 2nd floor of my house. It's good for BIAB/Freestyle/Finale MIDI writing (it's connected to a Yamaha PSR-510 as a controller), but couldn't possibly handle DAW software. But my acoustic piano, electric keyboard, guitars, and amps are in my BASEMENT, which is where I want to set up my project studio.

 

So for me to go the computer-based DAW route, I would have to buy a new, powerful computer that I would dedicate for music and set it up in my basement, along with all the other stuff I would need (interface, software).

So that would put me in the $2000 range, and that's off my budget scale.

 

So I'm leaning toward rocksld's idea, which was also my idea. I figure if I START OUT with the portastudio, I'd quickly get used to the small screen, etc., and most importantly, I'll GET GOING with writing and recording, while my time and bank account aren't being EATEN ALIVE by all that ever-more-draining professional audio stuff.

 

Thanks, guys!

 

[UstadKhanAli]

To go the computer-based DAW is definitely more "fiddly" and time-consuming. I don't really have strong suggestions for portable DAWs, although a lot of people seem to like the Rolands. See what makes sense to you and use that. Good luck with your recording!!!

[where02190]

IMHO you'll learn a lot more faster on even a modest computer based DAW than on a consumer stand alone. You can get a good desktop PC for cheap (under$500), and for $700-$1000 something like a Mackie Onyx, which comes with Tracktion, great entry software, extremely powerful but also very, very easy to learn. There are other interfaces even cheaper.

 

As noted, you'll need mics, stands, cabling, HP and control room monitoring, and IMHO the most important, acoustical room tuning, which you can DIY for pretty cheap as well.

 

This would give you a nice, entry level system that will produce good audio(with the right knowledge) and can be expanded as your abilities and needs grow.

 

The little stand alone machines are limited to what they do.

[nobrainer440]

Honestly, I think PC-based systems are just as easy to learn as a stand-alone DAW, and WAY easier to edit with. Yes, there are more menus and buttons to deal with if you want to, but to just record some tracks, it's easy as pie. A monitor and a keyboard and a mouse are much more intuitive to me than a tiny screen and convoluted menus and cryptic controls on a DAW. That's just my opinion.

 

I also researched some small DAW's, and found that a PC setup usually gets you way more bang for the buck.

 

If you just want to throw down some tracks quickly, a DAW is the choice for simplicity and protability, but they are usually very limited in terms of editing and effects routing and mixing.

 

Also, if you want lots of synthesizers on a budget, software is the way to go.

[Rollo10AD]

Thanx, where and nobrainer for the input!

 

But I Have A Plan--

 

2007: Get the complete portastudio system (DAW w/ phantom power for condenser mic, mic stand, monitors, phones, cables) and GET STARTED MAKING MUSIC.

 

I think the newer porta-DAWs aren't as limited as you guys might think, are more intuitive than you might think, and what's cool is I can transfer the tracks from their hard-drives to my desktop computer and do any further editing from there. On top of that, my digital keyboard has more than 200 patches I can use for synth sounds and all kinds of other sounds to be recorded into the porta-DAW.

 

 

2008: I go ahead and get a new desktop computer powerful enough to handle state-of-the-art DAW software. I can continue to use the portastudio, transfer the recordings to the desktop, and do the more professional editing stuff from there.

 

I think it would be cool to know and work with BOTH paradigms while I just continue to GET THE MUSIC OUT THERE.

 

Any and all criticisms of this plan are welcome!

[UstadKhanAli]

No criticisms. You can eventually use your portable DAW for, well, portability!

 

Obviously, this plan will cost you more money because of the portable DAW (although if you get a relatively cheap one, it won't take much of a bite out of your wallet, whereas some of the more costly portable DAWs can be rather expensive!).

 

Also, you want to make absolutely sure that whatever portable DAW you get will be able to *easily* transfer individual files to computer-based DAWs easily. I emphasize this because I've had two people who recorded with Roland and Boss portable DAWs who have had great difficulty getting their individual tracks to me to mix, eventually just giving up.

 

I don't know for sure about portable DAWs, never having used one. I just see people scrolling through menus. But the users always say that once you adjust to how a portable DAW works, it's actually rather quick because everything is laid out in front of you. The only thing that the users seem to consistently complain about (besides the sound quality, which is perhaps not the greatest in some of the cheaper ones) is the difficulty of editing. Aside from that, they seem to really love the recorders.

 

But anyway, there's something to be said for gettin' on with it and recording right away!!! Less fiddlin', more recording.

[Rollo10AD]

UKA, thanx for the good word. I'll be sure to confirm that I can do everything I want to do with the porta-DAW BEFORE I purchase it.

 

The only thing I don't understand is when you write, "obviously it will be more expensive." Not really. I can get the ENTIRE PORTASTUDIO RECORDING SET-UP for around $800. If I went the computer-based route, it would cost around:

 

1) new computer: $500 (at least)

2) recording software $500 (GOOD software, not el cheapo)

3) interface $500 (a GOOD interface)

4) mic, headphones, stand, monitors, cables, etc. $500

 

= $2000

 

Did you mean my WHOLE 2-YEAR PLAN would be more expensive? No, because I won't be buying a 2nd, dedicated music computer.

 

The thing is, I will need a new computer anyway to replace the antique machine I'm using now, but I can wait a year for that. But I CAN'T wait around for a year to start making music, you dig?

[UstadKhanAli]

Yes, I meant the two-year plan because you'd have to purchase the porta-DAW and then the computer-based DAW...but I guess if you don't feel this is the case, then you're good to go!

 

But yes, I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy - don't wait, record music ASAP!!!

 

I'm using a 5 1/2 year old Mac to record music. Doesn't matter. All that matters is that it works great and I get awesome sounding recordings.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

BTW, my understanding is that Audacity is good for next to nothing or free or whatever it is, and that Mackie Tracktion, which is $200 or comes bundled with one of Mackie's recording interfaces, is very high-quality recording software.

 

However, on the flip side of it, rarely is a computer used for recording $500 since you usually have to do things like kick up the RAM, get a second HD, etc. etc.

 

And then, of course, there's purchasing plug-ins....

[where02190]

Trackion is excellent DAW software and is under $200.

 

A used original M-box can be had for $150, and has two excellent mic pres built in and decent converters. It will run on any software with the (free) Digi core audio drivers.

 

However, $500 for mic, headphones, stand, monitors, cables, etc., is definitely too little. Think double that. But, with T2 and the used M-box, you'd still be well under $1500.

 

AFA the limitations of the stand alones, few of them offer a full sized GUI, you edit on their tiny onboard LCD screens, none of them can utilize anything but the built in dynamics(no plugin support), most cannot itilize, and none can simply any outboard dynamics or fx.

 

These units are NOTHING like running DAW application, they are by comparison very weak and limited imitations for not a lot less money, except for the really cheap units that are worthless in terms of learning or decent quality audio. They are fine for doing reference mixes just to get an idea down and {censored} like that, but have no real quality for anything remotely considered usable for a public release.

[C JoGo]

Originally posted by Rollo10AD 1.) >> used VS Roland 2480 includes your software/interface/effects (about) :$900 if your search 2.) >> start off with 2 or 3 used mics CAD, RODE, etc -- Audio Tech/ KOSS headphones -- stands/cables : $525 Monitor --used Event SP8 or M Audio to start : $300-600 = $ In Budget -- start recording in 2007:thu: But this studio has no intention to going to a PC/ PT style recording system --For our clients and myself , the Roland VS is well beyond our expectations > for the quality results & ease of use.

 

[Majoria]

I used a portable Roland for about 6 years before switching to a PC with Pro Tools. What a huge upgrade in every sense! And the PC and Pro Tools together were way cheaper than the Roland ($1600 for the Roland, $663 for the PC and $450 for Pro Tools with the Mbox2). I still use the Roland for taking to gigs and live recording but if you have the chance, definately go with the DAW setup. You will likely learn WAY faster since it's more visual for easier editing. Plus, on a computer you can keep other notes (sheet music, recording notes, etc).

 

Bottom line: why buy a setup twice when you can buy the right one once?

 

If you must go with the portable because you absolutely cannot wait, then get a cheap used one for the short term as you accumulate the finds for the real setup. I can't stress enough that the difference between the portable studio and even an entry level DAW is astronomical.

[Rollo10AD]

OK, OK, OK, enough pummelling, I'm convinced! I admit I was naive about all this, since I never did any home recording before.

 

So now I'm thinking about the Tascam US-122 interface, which comes bundled with Cubase LE and GigaStudio LE for around $200. My big concern now is choosing the right computer, which I will use solely as a dedicated music machine. In any case, I'm going to wait for the "March Madness" sales to get all the components.

 

Any advice on computers/screens, mikes, monitors, headphones (no laptops, please--I'm trying to do all this on a budget) is welcome.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by Rollo10AD Any advice on computers/screens, mikes, monitors, headphones (no laptops, please--I'm trying to do all this on a budget) is welcome.

 

You should state your budget for these items since "being on a budget" is all relative.

 

M-Audio generally makes good bang-for-the-buck stuff, as does Mackie.

 

For cheap mics that don't sound like crap, Marshalls and Audio-Technica (AT2020, for instance) make good stuff. There will be other recommendations as well. SM 57s are useful on a number of items, but in my opinion, really come to life when you pair them with a high-quality mic preamp. Avenson ST0-2s are a very nice bargain for how cheap they are ($550 for a pair of these fine omnis).

[UstadKhanAli]

I'll mention this as well....every single dynamic microphone I own, I've purchased used. These would include 4 SM 57s and 3 Sennheiser 421s. Never had a problem with any of these mics. Something to consider if you are on a budget.

 

I have also purchased used mic stands and even cables (although I don't purchase cables used anymore since my studio is making more money these days).

[rlindsey0]

A piece of gear you might look at is this:

 

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACONYXSAT

 

It's an interface BUT it also includes Tracktion software, which is powerful and easy to learn and can give you as professional results as you're likely to need, AND it has a portable element. Thus, for $400 you can get what you were assuming would cost you $1000.

 

I haven't used the Satellite, but I own and use Tracktion, and I love it. It's no toy, though it's easy to get on top of.

 

There are other good options as well, and people will chime in with those. I just wanted to offer a vote for Tracktion, not because it's necessarily the best for everybody but because *IMO and IME* it's a good choice for someone who thinks of himself more as a musician than as an engineer.

[Rollo10AD]

How does Cubase (in this case Cubase LE, which is upgradeable to Cubase SX) stack up against the Tracktion you guys were talking about?

 

For that matter, how about a comparison between Cubase, Tracktion, ProTools, Performer, and others? The following is what I gather, tell me if it's off the mark:

 

Rock & Pop musicians tend to use ProTools

 

Classical and Media composers tend to use Performer

 

Jazz and high school/college band people tend to use Cubase

 

Is that an off-the-wall generalization or what?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Also, I have been STRONGLY advised to go with condenser mics instead of dynamic mics.

 

What up with that?

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by Rollo10AD For that matter, how about a comparison between Cubase, Tracktion, ProTools, Performer, and others? The following is what I gather, tell me if it's off the mark: Rock & Pop musicians tend to use ProTools Classical and Media composers tend to use Performer Jazz and high school/college band people tend to use Cubase Is that an off-the-wall generalization or what? -------------------------------------------------------------- Also, I have been STRONGLY advised to go with condenser mics instead of dynamic mics. What up with that?

 

As far as the generalization, I have no idea. I use Pro Tools and record rock and pop (and singer/songwriter and experimental), so I guess I fall into the stereotype. Who knows.

 

If you just get a mic or two, then a condenser is probably more versatile. But for some things, dynamics are really great, really useful (drums, percussion, guitar amps, etc.). But I do think that condensers, very *generally* speaking, are *generally* more versatile.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Bottom line: why buy a setup twice when you can buy the right one once?

 

Agreed - bu the trick is in determing what is "the right one" from the beginning - and not all users' needs are best met by computer based systems... or hardware units either for that matter.

 

The new tiny MBox (I forget the actual name - sorry) is $325 or so and comes bundled with Pro Tools LE, some good basic plug ins and virtual instruments. 32 tracks sounds like it would work fine in this case, and if you're not looking to become an audio engineer Rollo, Pro Tools might be a good choice for you, since it is very easy to take your incomplete recordings to other Pro Tools equipped studios for overdubs, drum tracking, mixdowns, etc. That compatability can be a "good thing" IMO for someone in your position. Tack on another $500-600 or so for a capable, if somewhat basic computer, and you're in for under a grand...

 

However, while PT has made serious strides insofar as increasing their MIDI features, and it is certainly possible to easily and effortlessly accomplish most everyday MIDI tasks in the latest versions of PT, many composers still find something like Emagic Logic or Steinberg's Cubase to be better suited for composition... it really depends on your individual preferences and needs, but both of those programs have more extensive / esoteric MIDI features.

 

If you're planning on needing just basic MIDI functionality, but need good solid audio recording and editing, PT is pretty hard to beat. OTOH, something like a Yamaha AW1600 can offload WAV files to a computer for editing (you could use any major DAW program for the editing), offers great portability, good ease of use and very nice sound quality - more than capable of handling the sort of projects you've described. But that is going to cost about a grand in and of itself... you'll still need cables, a microphone or two (or more...), stands, headphones, a pair of monitor speakers, etc. etc. Unless you already have some of those items...

 

Gee, I hope novices are welcome here...

 

Always.

 

And welcome to the forum.

[C JoGo]

Lots of good used gear out there .. 80% of our studios are pre-owned. Since we are from the days of hands-on-faders..way too expensive for us to go PT > a automated 24 channel board still is not that affordable...for our client base.

[DontLetMeDrown]

I've got a couple ideas:

 

1. Check out a Line6 Tonport. ($200) This will let you record guitar, bass, and vocals.

 

2. Have your drummer check out the program BFD. ($300) Download the demo and have him mess around with it. The BFD license gives you installs on 2 computers. Your drummer could compose his beats at home, then save the file and give it to you and you can record the rest using the Toneport.

 

That leaves $500 for monitors, mics, and cables. Do you have recording software? The Toneport comes with one but it kinda sucks. If your drummer can't get into the programming, you will need to buy an interface with more inputs like a Firepod ($500) and more mics (= more $ ). Quality will not be stellar, but you should get some decent recordings.

[Rollo10AD]

Thank you for the welcome, Phil, and for the GREAT advice.

 

And thanx to everyone else who posted on this topic.

 

Workin on it...