Members Majoria Posted March 11, 2007 Members Share Posted March 11, 2007 I'm still researching on the best way to sound treat my dual purpose recording and practice room. I keep reading about OC 703 so I went to the local Home Depot and also Lowe's but neither had any. So what are the best alternatives? And how thick? One thing I'd like to make is a portable/removable vocal booth, 3 sides and a maybe a top. We record vocals with an AT4040. I'm thinking each panel to be 4'x4' and be held up off the ground with legs. I also want to make a similar device (or maybe adjustable height legs for dual purpose) for recording accoustic guitar. And of course, perhaps some room treatments. I've found plenty of thread and forums for that but all keep talking about 703 or 705, I just need to know which of the below items (or combination) would work the best. Home Depot Pink panels (for interior basement walls)1.5" x 2' x 8' Insul-pink R-7.5 $11.672"x2'x8' TG R-10 Foamular 250 $14.151"x2'x8' TG Foamular R5 250 $7.590.75"x2'x8' TG Foamular 250 $6.73 Dow super Tuff commercial, polyisocyanurate2"x4'x8' R12.0 Super Tuff-R C $28.630.5" Super Tuff-R R-3.3 $10.98 1" Tuff-R 6.5 $15.971 3/8" Tuff-R R 8.9 $24.62 0.5"x4'x8' 440 homasote soundbarrier $23.17 3/16"x4'x8' tempered hardboard $9.99 (like pegboard but no holes)3/16x2'x4' tempered hardboard $3.561/4x2'x4' MDF Handypanel $3.691/2"x2'x4' MDF Handypanel $5.953/4"x2'x4' MDF Handypanel $7.37 1/4"x2'x4' poplar handypanel $5.59 1/2x2'x4' BC Handypanel $7.49 (boise cascade) 0.25"x2'x4' birch handypanel $5.570.5"x2'x4' birch handypanel $7.990.75"x2'x4' birch handypanel $10.95 LOWE'S 0.5"x4'x8' Expand polystyrene $9.441"x4'x8' Expand polystyrene $11.862"x4'x8' Expand polystyrene $22.420.5"x4'x8' Sheath RS Styrofoam $10.38 0.75"x4'x8' Sheath T&G RS Styrofoam R4.0 $12.121"x2'x8' Sheath T&G RS Styrofoam R5.0 $7.561"x4'x8' Super Tuff-R R-6.5 $16.980.5"x4'x8' Super Tuff-R R-3.3 $10.86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ethan Winer Posted March 11, 2007 Members Share Posted March 11, 2007 I just need to know which of the below items (or combination) would work the best. None of those. Acceptable substitutes for rigid fiberglass are mineral wool and rock wool. My Acoustics FAQ has much more about this: http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html See the section Rigid Fiberglass in the table of contents for photos, suitable alternatives, and company contact info. --Ethan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Forget Lowe's and HD. Instead, look in the phone book for industrial insulation supply companies. OC 705 is denser than 703, and costs more. Knauf (sp?) and Johns Manville make similar semi-rigid fiberglass board type products. You want at least 3 lbs / cu ft. density, and 6 lbs / cu ft is even better. 2" thick is good - you can double layer 1", or double layer 2" for thicker panels as needed. A possibly cheaper alternative is mineral wool sheets. http://www.insulationworld.com/ The problem with that site is the shipping costs to the west coast, but it should be much cheaper for you. Out here, there's a place in Garden Grove called Southwest Insulation that has great prices / service. Due to the size of the panels and the weight, you can get zapped on shipping - if there's a local industrial insulation supplier in your area, picking it up locally might save you money - depending on what sales tax is in your area. IMO, I wouldn't waste time with normal "ceiling panels" from Lowes or Home Depot - get mineral wool or compressed fiberglass and "do it right". And do make sure you check out Ethan's excellent forum on Musicplayer.com as well as his DIY acoustics FAQ's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted March 11, 2007 Members Share Posted March 11, 2007 Cheapest I have found is 2" thick 703 panels on ebay. About 100 including shipping for a case of 6. I think that is your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted March 11, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 11, 2007 Thanks for the feedback. I see the thicker the better for the bass traps but is it the same for the portable/removable vocal booth? Would 2" thick be enough or should I step up to 4" all around? I'm mainly recording just voice and accoustic guitar at this point. Wow that 703 is expensive. But considering my room is roughly 13x15 and not a true rectangle (closet protrudes into the room), I need something. And the 7 1/2' ceiling doesn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted March 12, 2007 Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 Well if you are making an enclosure type thing too reduce recorded reflections, then 2" should be ok. I made some panels out of 703 and hung them from the wall using french cleats (made from 2x4s) so they are spaced about 2" from the wall. They just hang freely on the french cleats and that allows me to remove them and use them anywhere I want while recording, and hang them back up for monitoring. Oh, it might be helpful to know that I work in a home studio and have a one room setup. It works out quite well though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nobrainer440 Posted March 12, 2007 Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 These guys can get 703, rock wool, or whatever you need. Hopefully you can find one near you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted March 12, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 These guys can get 703, rock wool, or whatever you need. Hopefully you can find one near you. SPI may just work. Their listing for Boston is actually Auburn, MA which is no where near Boston but is close to me. I'll give them a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted March 12, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 Just to make sure I read Ethan's web site and interpreted it correctly, is 4" of 705 the same as 8" of 703, or 2" vs 4"? I want to understand the 3 vs 6 lbs and if that is a linear or progressive absorbtion rate. IOW, just because 6 is twice the number as 3, is 705 at 6 lbs/sq ft always twice the absorbtion rate as 703 at 3? I see it's one of many variables, just want to understand that portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfipie Posted March 12, 2007 Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 Just to make sure I read Ethan's web site and interpreted it correctly, is 4" of 705 the same as 8" of 703, or 2" vs 4"? I want to understand the 3 vs 6 lbs and if that is a linear or progressive absorbtion rate. IOW, just because 6 is twice the number as 3, is 705 at 6 lbs/sq ft always twice the absorbtion rate as 703 at 3? I see it's one of many variables, just want to understand that portion. No 705 is not twice as effective as 703. In fact sabins per dollar 703 smokes 705 all day long. But since room treatment is most important thing for your room it only makes sense to consider 705. Not to say that 703 will not work just fine for you. A 6" panel of 703 will perform better then a 4" of 705 and cost you less money to boot. Hope that helps. Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted March 12, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was only comparing 703 to 705 for bass traps, I have no intention of using 705 for higher frequency treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfipie Posted March 12, 2007 Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 you made it clear.. What I was talking about is bass traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Qengho Posted March 12, 2007 Members Share Posted March 12, 2007 Ready Acoustics sells 703 at reasonable prices and also has bags to make your own traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricImages Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 hey Phil, do you have a phone number for that Southwest Insulation place? I thought I found one online today but I actually ended up just calling a fax machine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Southwestern Insulation 12851 Nelson Street Garden Grove, CA 92640 Tel: 714-530-2980 Fax: 714-530-6011 Ask for Jeff. last time I talked to them, they were still delivering for free in the greater LA area - including the Inland Empire. Also, as with just about every other vendor, their prices for mineral wool are significantly less expensive than for compresed fiberglas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricImages Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 Should I say Phil O'Keefe sent me? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Probably won't hurt, but I don't think it's going to help much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mind Riot Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 http://www.mcmaster.com Item number 9328K43. It's what I used to do my studio. 8 pound per cubic foot density mineral wool, for about $11 for a 2' x 4' x 2" sheet. I had to have it shipped from SoCal up to where I live near the Oregon border, and shipping wasn't that expensive (I remember something like $45 for fifteen sheets or so). I don't know if you've already found a great deal somewhere, but $11 a sheet for a 705 equivalent is the cheapest I've personally ever found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 http://www.mcmaster.comItem number 9328K43. It's what I used to do my studio. 8 pound per cubic foot density mineral wool, for about $11 for a 2' x 4' x 2" sheet. I had to have it shipped from SoCal up to where I live near the Oregon border, and shipping wasn't that expensive (I remember something like $45 for fifteen sheets or so).I don't know if you've already found a great deal somewhere, but $11 a sheet for a 705 equivalent is the cheapest I've personally ever found. They're in Santa Fe Springs, which is reasonably local. I wonder if they deliver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricImages Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 I know mineral wool doesnt hold its shape as well as 703 but how big is the difference really? It seems to still come in sheets... do the sheet fall apart into fluff or are they just droopier? Would the mineral wool compact over time in a vertical panel so that the top space was just empty once it settled vs 703 staying true to rectangular form over time or is the difference not really that much? Just curious because it seems 703 has a reputation of being "easier to work with" but if you only have to deal with it once when you are putting it in a frame of some sorts, is it really that much better than finding equivalent mineral wool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfipie Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 I know mineral wool doesnt hold its shape as well as 703 but how big is the difference really? It seems to still come in sheets... do the sheet fall apart into fluff or are they just droopier? Would the mineral wool compact over time in a vertical panel so that the top space was just empty once it settled vs 703 staying true to rectangular form over time or is the difference not really that much? Just curious because it seems 703 has a reputation of being "easier to work with" but if you only have to deal with it once when you are putting it in a frame of some sorts, is it really that much better than finding equivalent mineral wool? If you don't mind framing it up then the mineral wool will be fine. Even if you just wrap 703 into a bag it could sag over time. Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ethan Winer Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 I was only comparing 703 to 705 for bass traps, I have no intention of using 705 for higher frequency treatment. See this: http://ethanwiner.com/density/density.html Related, also see this: http://ethanwiner.com/fraud.html --Ethan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mono boy Posted March 13, 2007 Members Share Posted March 13, 2007 http://www.mcmaster.comItem number 9328K43. I just recieved my order today. for 266 dollars I got 20 sheets of 2' x 4' x 2" and 10 sheets of 2' x 4' x 1". still not sure what shipping was. I think it was 60. make sure you specify having the delivery made to a residence (not a business) or you'll be charged an extra 60 dollars if a delivery is attempted by fed ex freight when you are not at home./jonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricImages Posted March 14, 2007 Members Share Posted March 14, 2007 Ethan, I found the density comparison you posted very informative but it left me wondering how much of a difference there is between the three (well mainly 703 and 705 plain and FRK) different densities in the high frequency absorption for use to treat first reflection spots. For this application are 703 and 705 basically the same? Would the additional bass absoprtion from 705 be worth using it in a first reflection spot over 703 or is 703 much better at higher frequencies? Also, when using 705 FRK in a corner as a bass trap, your website states that the FRK paper can be faced into the room to reflect high frequencies or face the wall to absorb them. Is there any difference in low frequency response between the two orientations? Finally, when treating first reflection spots, would 2" of figerglass spaced 2" from the wall be effective enough for most situations or would it give a noticeable benefit in bass response to use 4" or 705 FRK with the paper facing the wall? Basically I am asking if it is better to just treat first reflection spots with 2" and save thicker applications for corners where bass traping is most effective or if it would be a significant gain to use thicker first reflection treatments due to increasing the surface area of coverage? Thanks for your time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myfipie Posted March 14, 2007 Members Share Posted March 14, 2007 >Finally, when treating first reflection spots, would 2" of figerglass spaced 2" from the wall be effective enough for most situations or would it give a noticeable benefit in bass response to use 4" or 705 FRK with the paper facing the wall? Basically I am asking if it is better to just treat first reflection spots with 2" and save thicker applications for corners where bass traping is most effective or if it would be a significant gain to use thicker first reflection treatments due to increasing the surface area of coverage? For your first reflections you do not want to use FRK in that area and if you have pletty of bass trapping in the room then using 2" spaced 2" off the wall should work fine. For the first reflections you can use 703 or 705, but the 703 is going to work just as well in this area and save you a bunch of money. Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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