What's the difference between Native and TDM Plugins?

[Palaver]

Dear Forum,

 

From some brief research, I understand that TDM plugs work at a 48 bit resolution and are superior to the native versions? The reason why I bring this stuff up is because I am looking at UAD platforms/waves platforms.

 

I notice that Derek Roddy is a waves user. How would you compare UAD to waves?

 

I'm also interested in getting an outboard processor for my laptop. Can the native plugins be used without external DSPs? I'm assuming the answer to that is "yes." Do the waves TDM bundles only work on the APA32 & APA44-M units? Why is the APA44-M more than double the cost of the APA32 box? Does this once again have to do with running TDM plugs vs. the native versions?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sorry about all the questions... I have dug around on the waves FAQ section... and the DSP solution with Logic Pro ain't lookin' to great... if I do go with waves, it would be the native platinum bundle anyway... unless there's some crazy reason to go with the TDM.

 

Thanks,

Phil

[scud133]

TDM requires a hardware card to run. RTAS is run on software (it uses more of your computer's resources).

 

TDM versions can sometimes run at higher resolutions. But most people seem to think the audible difference between the two is negligible.

[Palaver]

 

TDM requires a hardware card to run. RTAS is run on software (it uses more of your computer's resources). TDM versions can sometimes run at higher resolutions. But most people seem to think the audible difference between the two is negligible.

 

 

That's good to know. Do the TDM versions of the waves bundles come with the hardware processor? Or do you have to pay the premium for the TDM plugs package, plus the money for the hardware?

 

For example the Platinum Native package is now on sale for $1680. The TDM version of Platinum is $3360. So does the TDM bundle package come with the APA32 or APA44-M hardware box? Or do you have to pay extra for the hardware processor on top of the more pricey TDM package?

 

I'd prefer to just buy the native Platinum bundle and keep the funds for a more powerful computer... as opposed to dumping that kind of change... esp, with Quadcore on the way.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Phil

[MrJoshua]

Basically, TDM plugins run on TDM hardware. That means if you have a ProTools HD rig with dedicated hardware for processing plugins, you can use TDM plugins. This lightens the load on your computer by using the processing cards to run those plugins.

 

Native, in the ProTools world, refers to RTAS (Real-Time Audio Suite, if I remember correctly) plugins. These plugins are processed by your computer's CPU. I believe VST and other similar plugin formats are also native, although normally when I hear "native" used it's in reference to RTAS just to differentiate it from TDM when referring to ProTools.

 

These days, with quad-core CPUs and cheap RAM, you can run a LOT of native plugins before you run out of processing power as long as you have a stout computer.

 

To run TDM plugins, you need TDM hardware and software.

 

To run native plugins, you just need a computer and software capable of handling that plugin.

[nerol1st]

You can NOT run TDM plugs on pro tools LE.

 

Just giving you the 411 man.

[Palaver]

 

Basically, TDM plugins run on TDM hardware. That means if you have a ProTools HD rig with dedicated hardware for processing plugins, you can use TDM plugins. This lightens the load on your computer by using the processing cards to run those plugins. Native, in the ProTools world, refers to RTAS (Real-Time Audio Suite, if I remember correctly) plugins. These plugins are processed by your computer's CPU. I believe VST and other similar plugin formats are also native, although normally when I hear "native" used it's in reference to RTAS just to differentiate it from TDM when referring to ProTools. These days, with quad-core CPUs and cheap RAM, you can run a LOT of native plugins before you run out of processing power as long as you have a stout computer. To run TDM plugins, you need TDM hardware and software. To run native plugins, you just need a computer and software capable of handling that plugin.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, do you have much experience with both the UAD and Waves platform? Within the year, I plan on grabbing either the Platinum waves bundle, or a UAD Xpander with the Precision Mastering bundle w/ some EQs and compressors. Would you recommend one over the other?

 

I get the feeling that Waves has the upper-hand on the Mastering stuff... whereas UAD would be better in the compressor/EQ domain.

[Phil O'Keefe]

My (somewhat limited) understanding of the Waves APA systems is that they act as external DSP boxes, similar to the Focusrite (Liquidmix) and SSL (Duende) external DSP units, and the Universal Audio (UAD) DSP PCI cards. They actually add additional processing power to your computer's "native" CPU processing capability. Not all plug-ins will run on all DSP products - they have to be "coded" for the specific DSP processor you're using.

 

Digidesign HD systems use extra DSP processing chips on PCI cards to do the same basic thing - add additional processing beyond that which the computer's CPU can provide.

 

Native plug-ins (ones that "run" on your computer's CPU) come in various formats. For example, RTAS (Real Time Audio Suite) plug ins work with both HD and LE Pro Tools systems, but won't run within Cubase or Sonar. VST plug-ins are also "native", and probably the most widely used native plug-in format. Most DAW programs can use them - even Pro Tools, although a $100 software "wrapper" (the fxpansion VST - RTAS adapter) will be required to use them with Pro Tools.

 

Waves plug-ins do come in VST, RTAS and TDM formats, and possibly others too. Their TDM plug-ins do NOT come with any additional processors - they run on the Digidesign processors on the HD / HD Accel processor cards.

 

One issue you should be aware of when using third party DSP cards / external units is latency. It takes a certain amount of time for the audio to be routed to the third party DSP units, get processed, and then sent back to the computer, so you can't normally use these plug-ins in "real time"; IOW, while tracking. HD systems have an advantage there, because part of the system design deals with that latency and compensates for it.

 

TDM versions of the same plug-in usually do cost significantly more than their RTAS equivalents; I'm not really completely sure why... I do know that once I went from a Pro Tools LE (Native) system to a HD system, it opened up a lot of additional capabilities. I really don't hear much difference between TDM and RTAS versions of the same plug-ins, but the "HD only" plug-ins I have are significantly more powerful than the RTAS stuff. In other words, there's no RTAS version of the Eventide Anthology II plug-ins, and their sound and capabilities are significantly better than anything I could find that ran in the world of RTAS plug-ins.

[jackcheez]

While we're at it, these TDM plugins that add processing power to your computer, will demand a lot of memory from your computer. Being somewhat novice, I made the mistake of swallowing the sales line "does not use any of your computer's processing power" without realizing that it was going to use tons of my computer's RAM.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Fortunately, RAM is relatively inexpensive these days.

[nerol1st]

RAM is uber cheap I put 2 more gigs in my machine for $100.

 

I have space for 16gigs (8 slots-->double sided RAM). But I don't see the point.

[Palaver]

Guys, I really appreciate all of the answers. I'm thinking that native plugins sound more and more like the way to go.

 

My needs are primarily for mastering... but from all of your experiences, would the waves ones be the best for that? The Platinum bundle has really peaked my interest, and it looks like I could get more use out of that than a UAD DSP package. However, the UAD stuff just looks fantastic.

 

Decisions, decisions... I figure I will purchase plugins when I finish off a current project and go to finalize the mixing process. I really have to sink my teeth into Logic Studio, and figure out its weak points... then my plugin choices will be made after that step. I know it's terrible to fully mix and master your own work, but it's something that I want to learn over the next year... and I figure... why the hell not. I've worked with engineers, and I have some acquaintances, so I always have them for a lending ear and help... along with the forum.

 

If any of you have any other advice, feel free to fire away.

 

Greatly appreciated as always,

Phil

[Phil O'Keefe]

I really have to sink my teeth into Logic Studio, and figure out its weak points... then my plugin choices will be made after that step.

 

That sounds reasonable to me. Spend some time with Logic's bundled plug-ins first, and from that, you should get a pretty good idea of what else you may want or need.

 

If you have a reasonably fast / modern computer, you can do a heck of a lot with just the native CPU power these days. For mastering, you want to get very high quality stuff, but it's not like you're running dozens and dozens of them at once like you might do with a mix and you're not worried about latency, so if mastering is the main emphasis, then chances are your computer will have enough "horsepower" to handle it.

 

After that, if just comes down to features and sonics. We can give you suggestions, but ultimately that part's up to you.