Does the "Public" even value originality anymore ?

[Ashley15]

To TS: While most of the so-called "singers" today target the POP audience and imitate either the boy band or boy next door image or the late 90's early 00's Britney Spears image, there are SOME artists who remain true to themselves. For example, I am not a very big fan of Lady Gaga (while I do admit that her stuff is pretty catchy) but I think she is a pretty rare creature judging by her style and ability to manipulate the image that SHE has created. She really stands out from the rest. However, now other artists have begun to emulate her, so she is now a trendsetter. So no matter how hard you try someone has probably already tried it before. However, if you stay true to yourself then you are still unique in a way. The best thing to do is to not alter or compromise who you are and what your music represents just to sell to the mainstream (unless that's what you want). Personally, I think that many artists like Katy Perry, Kelly Clarkson and Avril Lavigne all had to compromise themselves to sell records. It's sad, but that's the entertainment industry for you. Even, Gaga isn't doing her vocal inclinations any justice by singing the songs she sings. She is much more talented than people realize. However, she has established herself as more of a entertainer than a singer and she has learned to manipulate her own image to work in he favor. She looks and sounds the same as she did 2 years ago, so I give her major kudos for that!


And hey if you have talent, the public WILL notice! or at least I will!

[elsongs]

This goes far beyond the confines of the music industry.

 

It seems nearly every movie that comes out these days is a sequel, prequel, remake or an adaptation. And there's more of those coming in the future.

 

But do people value originality? Well, the most talked-about movie of the Summer was Inception, which was neither a sequel, prequel, remake or adaptation.

 

(At least until Inception II comes out...)

[richardmac]

Really good point. On one level, the majority of America likes formula, the familiar, the predictable.. like a really well made cheeseburger. Or a Pixar movie. I'm not bagging on Pixar - I love their movies. But they know exactly which heartstrings to pull, when to pull them, and how far to pull them. It's formula, but it's done, like a great cheeseburger, to perfection.

 

But yes, every once in a while someone says "What would happen if I combined fried chicken and waffles?" And people try it and say "You know, this is not normal but I like it." However 99 out of 100 of those experiments are probably bad ideas or good ideas that go a little too far for people.

 

It's very difficult to come up with ideas that are original enough to be very different but not so different that you lose people. And then there's being different for the sake of being different. Which is what teenagers do. "I want to be different like everyone else!" If I'm tailgating at a college football game I want a freaking burger. Serving up tofu dogs on whole wheat rolls at a tailgate would probably get your ass kicked.

 

Great. Now I'm hungry.

 

Anyway, the staff songwriters (think Nashville) understand this very very well. The successful songwriters write songs the way Pixar writes movies. Well constructed product. Because the goal is to make something that people will enjoy and that will sell and make lots of money. To me it's an either/or thing. If you want to be successful you need to learn how to write a really good cheeseburger, OR you can write whatever you want to but the odds are huge you won't make any money. If money is important, write the cheeseburger. There's no sin in it. We all like them.

 

So to answer the question - The public does value originality, but not as much as a really good cheeseburger.

[BlueStrat]

There is a 3 person play called "Art" that I think every musician ought to see. In a nutshell, it's about a completely blank white canvas a guy buys from a well-known artist, and the three characters ague over it, one who loves it, one who thinks it's utter {censored}, and one who can't make up his mind because he wants to be accepted by both sides. It's a brilliant play, a wonderful commentary on the nature or modern art itself and delves into most of the stuff we discuss here. Go see it if you ever get the chance.

[richardmac]

Sounds interesting. All of that "art" stuff is too deep for me. I just write songs that I personally would like to hear. If I think it's crap, it never gets recorded. If I like or love it, I record it. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it because I'm not making a living at it. However, I'm a product of my environment and I really grew up in the 70's, so every so often I'll sing some line and I'll think "Oh my God, that sounds a little like Barry Manilow." The only cure for that is to plug in my Les Paul, put on the Insane setting on the POD, and just play as fast and obnoxious as I can until I feel less guilty.

 

I'm really working on taking all this stuff less seriously. The more seriously you take your own music, the more it messes up your head.

 

I heard a car go by yesterday with the big boom boom subs and the rap music specifically designed to make the big boom boom speakers go boom boom, and I thought, "Wow, if you think about it, that's about the stupidest thing that's ever happened in the history of music." I mean really, a loud tight rock kick drum through subs sounds awesome - you feel it in your chest. But the rap 808 stuff doesn't do that - it just bothers your eardrums. If Classical Music is equal to a multi-course gourmet meal, then that 808 rap stuff is equal to... actually it's inedible.

 

Sorry - that had nothing to do with anything, but I was typing, so it just sorta came out.

[flatfinger]

drum through subs sounds awesome - you feel it in your chest. .

:p



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timpani





Sorry ; couldn't resist !!!

I like your thought ... Music does mess with your head !! Hope it always stays that way !!!!

And you're spot on about how a creator of entertainment must ride the razors edge between boredom and confusion ;

I was talking with a seasoned citizen whilst in a waiting room , and there was a poster that was a collage of lots of Hollywood actors from the 40's and on up .................... They commented on how those old movies seemed to be slow paced to her kids and grand kids ........ I noticed now days that I often don't totally get some of the specifics of the plot or the story line of a newer movie until I 'm viewing them a second time !! ;... in some of the latest movies they dish it out at such a frenetic pace and overwhelm you with whiz-bang visual effects ( sometimes it's just a crutch cause there isn't much really going on in the story telling end of the equation anyways !!)





Cheers

[sventvkg]

Anyway, the staff songwriters (think Nashville) understand this very very well. The successful songwriters write songs the way Pixar writes movies. Well constructed product. Because the goal is to make something that people will enjoy and that will sell and make lots of money. To me it's an either/or thing. If you want to be successful you need to learn how to write a really good cheeseburger, OR you can write whatever you want to but the odds are huge you won't make any money. If money is important, write the cheeseburger. There's no sin in it. We all like them. So to answer the question - The public does value originality, but not as much as a really good cheeseburger.

 

 

Here's the thing and I know I must be in the minority here but I CRINGE when I hear the cliche', completely predictable bull{censored} that nashville 8 out of 10 times puts outs to country radio. I mean TO ME most of it is so bad it's embarassing. I diagree that it has to be this way for music to be digestable to the masses. That assembly line cookie cutter songwriting mentality is bad for the art as a whole. I'll take Steve Earle and Buddy Miller over Commercial Country because it's much better songwriting..and I can't even listen to Pop so I can't comment on that genre. YMMV.

[BlueStrat]

Here's the thing and I know I must be in the minority here but I CRINGE when I hear the cliche', completely predictable bull{censored} that nashville 8 out of 10 times puts outs to country radio. I mean TO ME most of it is so bad it's embarassing. I diagree that it has to be this way for music to be digestable to the masses. That assembly line cookie cutter songwriting mentality is bad for the art as a whole. I'll take Steve Earle and Buddy Miller over Commercial Country because it's much better songwriting..and I can't even listen to Pop so I can't comment on that genre. YMMV.

 

 

+1000

 

And you know what? Where I live, there's a market for the singer/songwriter/alt country stuff, but almost nobody except me is doing it. It's a completely untapped market, and I hope it stays that way for awhile- In my solo gig I transitioned from mostly blues and a few James Taylor and popular Dylan songs to a lot of Chris Knight, James McMurtry, Shawn Mullins, John Hiatt, obscure Prine, Dylan and Lovett, Kristofferson, Guy Clark, etc etc and I am getting more bookings and paid better. Last night I did a gig 200 miles from home (Freeway almost all the way!), but they paid me 200 plus dinner and I made 85 in tips, and drove home since I was done at 9. Same deal in town- I keep getting solo bookings, and I'm going to explore more venues for that. Screw this band drama. I'll play with the band when the opportunity presents itself, but I'm done trying to push a Cadillac uphill.

[richardmac]

200 miles from home? Wow. That is a long ass haul. I could play on the other coast (of Florida) if I were willing to drive that far. Orlando is only two hours away from me. I've got Tampa, Clearwater, St. Pete, and Orlando all within two hours. You'd think I'd be able to get gigs easy. Of course that would mean me actually getting off my ass and trying to get said gigs. More power to you, though. I won't be in a band either - hard to make money.

[BlueStrat]

200 miles from home? Wow. That is a long ass haul. I could play on the other coast (of Florida) if I were willing to drive that far. Orlando is only two hours away from me. I've got Tampa, Clearwater, St. Pete, and Orlando all within two hours. You'd think I'd be able to get gigs easy. Of course that would mean me actually getting off my ass and trying to get said gigs. More power to you, though. I won't be in a band either - hard to make money.

 

 

 

In the Inland Northwest, 200 miles between towns is pretty standard. Hell, I drive 40 miles one way just to go to band practice!

 

It's only 3 hours. It's basically a 10 hour day to make 285 dollars. so that's $28.50/hour. Better than my day gig! (Minus the 30 bucks for gas)

[tim_7string]

 

+1000 And you know what? Where I live, there's a market for the singer/songwriter/alt country stuff, but almost nobody except me is doing it. It's a completely untapped market, and I hope it stays that way for awhile- In my solo gig I transitioned from mostly blues and a few James Taylor and popular Dylan songs to a lot of Chris Knight, James McMurtry, Shawn Mullins, John Hiatt, obscure Prine, Dylan and Lovett, Kristofferson, Guy Clark, etc etc and I am getting more bookings and paid better. Last night I did a gig 200 miles from home (Freeway almost all the way!), but they paid me 200 plus dinner and I made 85 in tips, and drove home since I was done at 9. Same deal in town- I keep getting solo bookings, and I'm going to explore more venues for that. Screw this band drama. I'll play with the band when the opportunity presents itself, but I'm done trying to push a Cadillac uphill.

 

 

Other musicians often tell me that everyone wants to hear the same songs and that no one cares anyway, so why practice? Yet, my band plays a lot of offbeat songs (turning japanese, tom petty - the waiting, abracadabra) and people are constantly complimenting us about it. So, I think you are doing the right thing, Pat. I agree on the band thing too. Do what you enjoy and keep it fun for yourself.

[3shiftgtr]

I'm really working on taking all this stuff less seriously. The more seriously you take your own music, the more it messes up your head.

 

 

Hey Richard! Ain't seen ya around much lately....

 

Well, I couldn't disagree more. Some music is about concepts that require some planning, thought, and focus. And some music requires as little thought as possible. One is not better than the other, just different. Ornette Coleman's music is based on some pretty deep concepts that require understanding a lot of aesthetics, as well as musical training, and he is absolutely one of the most 'together' people I have ever met. The guy just exudes 'normal', but is a game changer genius....

[flatfinger]

And some music requires as little thought as possible. One is not better than the other

Cool !!!;

I found the chords to my next 10 songs !!!!




[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[sventvkg]

+1000 And you know what? Where I live, there's a market for the singer/songwriter/alt country stuff, but almost nobody except me is doing it. It's a completely untapped market, and I hope it stays that way for awhile- In my solo gig I transitioned from mostly blues and a few James Taylor and popular Dylan songs to a lot of Chris Knight, James McMurtry, Shawn Mullins, John Hiatt, obscure Prine, Dylan and Lovett, Kristofferson, Guy Clark, etc etc and I am getting more bookings and paid better. Last night I did a gig 200 miles from home (Freeway almost all the way!), but they paid me 200 plus dinner and I made 85 in tips, and drove home since I was done at 9. Same deal in town- I keep getting solo bookings, and I'm going to explore more venues for that. Screw this band drama. I'll play with the band when the opportunity presents itself, but I'm done trying to push a Cadillac uphill.

Seriously man! I do the same genre as you when I've been forced to play covers/originals gigs. My originals in the last 5 years a mostly roots rock/alt-country stuff as well so they fit right in and I usually do anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 a 3 or 4 hour night original

I think people ARE sick of the same old bull{censored} and welcome people playing this stuff because it's not mainstream or played out. Also, when I get requests I NEVER NEVER NEVER get Kenny Chesney, Jason Aldeen, Alan Jackson etc...I get Johnny Cash, Waylon, Willie, etc...Only REAL music. I have my own proof no one wants to hear the bull{censored} on Country Radio. Even though I'm about to do the Nashville thing, I hold hope that it's turning around. I KNOW there is a VOCAL minority and a vibrant scene for REAL, WELL CRAFTED, roots rock, alt-country and country right there in town Keep it up Pat, because you're on the right track.

[rlm297]

I think people are too accustomed to "satisfactory" well-written, produced, and structured popular music. I'd like to major label bands turn back into just being "awesome" or "horrible." We need some sort of polar opposite thing going on. Bands that know how to write hit songs on their own or bands that have to use other tricks to make up for their lack of songwriting.

 

Or it'd be neat to see a series of downright sloppy and ugly everyman bands make it. A band with members in their late 30's. A really fat guy on bass. People playing ugly taboo guitars. Look at Tommy Tutone, those guys were hideous and old and had one great song. We need more of that, for what that's worth. I'm tired of seeing 19 year olds with Gibson Standards and Fender Telecaster Deluxes, or 60+ legends with original 62 Strats.

 

And what's the deal with every up and coming random band having a guy playing Gretsch White Falcon today? That's lazy.

 

There needs to be a survival of the fittest for major label bands. Signed bands used to work hard to one-up the other signed bands with their new albums. Today, all mainstream rock albums are identical.

[richardmac]

Hey Richard! Ain't seen ya around much lately.... Well, I couldn't disagree more. Some music is about concepts that require some planning, thought, and focus. And some music requires as little thought as possible. One is not better than the other, just different. Ornette Coleman's music is based on some pretty deep concepts that require understanding a lot of aesthetics, as well as musical training, and he is absolutely one of the most 'together' people I have ever met. The guy just exudes 'normal', but is a game changer genius....

 

 

That's not really what I meant. I meant that if you spend all of your time thinking about how great you are and how much you deserve fame and you attach all of your self-worth to your success in music, you are screwed.

[sventvkg]

The great thing about art is it's subjective and it touches us all in different ways.

[BuckshotJenkins]

www.myspace.com/wagner

 

as original as anyone, great songs, huge range, one of a kind live show...but...

 

...no marketing plan, not much traction except rave reviews from a few folks and lots of other bands. without momentum, not gonna impress any "public". tough to swallow, but the truth.

[Poker99]

Most people don't care about the music. THAT is the truth my friends.

[flatfinger]

Most people don't care about the music. THAT is the truth my friends.

 

 

That would make sense if you look at how most record co's in the not so distant past were not owned by big ass corps ... Used to be that the president and CEO was a music lover . Now you have a board of directors and stock holders who only care about return on investment and are not concerned about stuff like artistic integrity ( or basically having any thing resembling dignity or class !!)

[hwyman]

Of course people love original music. Music that sounds new but strikes a familiar chord. But people generally don't like things that are difficult and hard to understand. And that's not a bad thing. That's the way people are built. If you can't appreciate that than you don't understand people. The problem is there are very few people that are original enough - or brave enough - to make compelling music within the narrow confines of popular music. And there are narrow confines - but that doesn't mean the 3-minute pop song can't be brilliant art. But there are too many lame whiners out there unwilling to take up the challenge - too many cowards when it comes to guitar-oriented pop music. That's why you hear less and less of it on the radio as it fades into obscurity. There are some enclaves of rock-oriented artists making interesting sounds, but most have a stubborn refusal to try to cater to the mainstream. Trust me. Nobody gives a {censored} about what you're doing and nobody is gonna come asking to hear about your epic work. You gotta seek out the attention. This involves being a grown up and making compromises. It's called coping with reality. Now super-talented Hip Hop and R&B artists? They love making hit songs and they're shameless about trying to hit it out of the park every time. And if you can't appreciate the artistry and merit of some of those hits than you're a narrow-minded douchebag that needs to open up their ears. I really suspect that the slow death of rock music is a reflection of a disturbing shift in the mindset of privileged middle class people. For the past few years, the overly coddled spoiled brats of baby boomers have been coming up thinking their {censored} don't stink. They got a whole lotta confidence. But they don't like to work. Or think they have to bust their asses to be appreciated for the special human beings that they are. So the people that still like making music with guitars and drums - they're too lazy or stubborn to do what it takes to become successfull. Which is, you know, make music that caters to the taste of others. And that is simple music. People have always mostly preferred simple music that revolves around famliar themes. This is not new. What's new is you have a whole generation of rock-oriented artists that think that's bull{censored} and don't want to play ball anymore. Now, where does the great music generally come from? Poor people. Or people that just don't have a lot of money. Working-class people, generally: Elvis. Beatles. Sinatra. Ray Charles. Axl Rose. Kurt Cobain. You name it - they generally grew up without {censored}. Of course, there are some exceptions. John Lennon & Mick Jagger come to mind. Lady Gaga's from the Upper West Side. But all those people made a calculated decision to crib the sounds of working people. What kind of music do working class people enjoy the most today? Country Music. Urban Music. What kind of music is languishing less bad than other types of music? Country Music and Urban Music. Because working class people think being successfull is super awesome. They appreciate artists that meet them in the middle with a product that they recognize. Young middle class artists think they're special and don't want to meet anybody in the middle. So they're not really breaking through beyond their niche audience, which looks like they do. Sounds like they do. Thinks like they do. Hipsters are making difficult music... for other hipsters. It's a tired echo chamber.

 

 

This is a great post. I agree with most and see many hipsters making music today as privileged, parent-funded projects bent on impressing a small circle of friends. Toiling away in obscurity but quite comfortable in terms of food and shelter and perhaps more comfortable creatively since their work will never be scrutinized outside of their tiny subculture. You can tour the entire country in a hipster band and never play in front of any working class people.

 

And f yes there is a mastery to pop hits that can appeal to everyone.

 

But the elephant in the room that you don't deal with is that contemporary country and urban music just plain blows. I know thats subjective. But its also plain as day. Cultural relativism only goes so far when the you compare the likes of todays country stars to Hank Williams or Waylon Jennings.

 

Moreover, whats wrong with playing to a small audience or subculture if your only goal is to create quality music for your peers? I'm not into Metal, but I respect the metal subculture because, at least where I am, no one playing metal really expects to make it "big." They just like spending their fridays and saturdays making big sounds for other metal dudes. In that way it is like folk music and is just what some people are into. Are hipster art rock bands any different? They are if they expect to be treated like they are special. But if they are just doing what they want to do and pleased to see how far it goes, I don't see them as being different as any other artist. I don't have any problem with people compromising themselves to appeal to a larger audience, but I don't see how its "being a grown up." Lady Gaga appeals to a huge audience. By shaking her tits around. Thats not grown up, thats just deciding commercial appeal is more important than artistic integrity, to which I say "to each his/her own"

[flatfinger]

Lady Gaga appeals to a huge audience. By shaking her tits around.

That's why life isn't fair ; My man boobs have never opened any doors for me ; Why did god give me these ? ( or nipples for that matter ).





It is interesting to try and figure ; I was reading some Seth Godwin bloggs , and he pointed out that the reason there are number ones is folks don't have allot of time to shop around and like to go "with a winner" so to speak . It's a comfortable thing to do ; Like buying a Toyota for dependability (until recently that is ! )


SO it would seem that without the time One would conceivably need to find a needle in a stack of needles , the Tried and true will prevail for most (same old same old) . It would be nice to have someone who could play the role of "taste maker" ( besides an algorithm that seeks to give something similar to what you've got already !!) .

I guess the mp3 bloggs are supposedly going to fill that role .




I guess I'm disappointed that there is nothing coming down the pike that gets me too excited .... Must be getting old ( that would explain the man boobs too ! )


.