Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 23, 2008 Members Share Posted December 23, 2008 I trust your experience more than a bunch of people I don't know, and I know you and I tend to hear things similarly, but I wonder what your response to this is. Well, he probably won't flame the hell out of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 There are several microphones that have a similar "look" to the CV-12 - the Aphex 460, Carvin CTM100 and Telefunken USA R-F-T M16 all share similar cosmetics and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the housings were all sourced from the same factory in China. I have no idea about their innards or other design elements, or even if the bodies were indeed all made in the same place... I have not spent enough time with any of them [except for the CV-12] to know if I'd have similar positive impressions regarding the other microphones. The CV-12 is certainly not a dull or dark sounding microphone Lee; it does lean towards bright... but it doesn't come across as harshly to my ears as a lot of the low cost, made in China condensers I've heard - and like you, I'm not a big fan of that harsh / overly hyped upper mids / top end. It's not that I don't like "bright" mikes though - the C12 and ELA M251 are both what I'd consider to be fairly "bright" microphones - it's that gritty and harsh top that so many of the M.I.C. condensers exhibit that I find annoying. The Avant CV-12 is also well accessorized - in addition to the camera case, shock mount [with extra elastic bands], power supply and cable, it also comes with three different 12V tube types, so you can experiment with different tube gain factors. While the "right" mic is always going to depend on the individual vocalist and the song / arrangement, the CV-12 sounded good on pretty much everyone I put in front of it. I'm not here to argue with the POV of other engineers, but I will say that I'd disagree a bit with those who have said it's every bit as good as a 251 or C12 - that claim seemed a bit over the top to me - but it does sound really good, and I consider it a very useful mic, and a terrific bargain at the price point. I should probably call up George to see if that anecdote from earlier in the thread is true or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted December 23, 2008 Members Share Posted December 23, 2008 I have a 414 B/XLS, which is one of the newer models. While I don't have a huge mic collection, I think it's a very usable mic. It's pretty reasonably priced if you shop around (I think I paid around $650 brand new a couple of years ago). I don't know, or really care, how it holds up against the original CK12-capsule mics. I just care how it works for my home studio, and it works well. I've enjoyed it as a room mic on drums, and it also works well for percussion and acoustic instruments. I think people (and I'm speaking in general, not to anyone here) get too carried away with comparing "new" to "old" sometimes. The 414 may not be what it used to be, but it can still be a very useful mic to have around. No, it isn't as nice as my Microtech-Gefell MT-70S, but it also cost around half as much. It can be used to get a great sound down on tape (er, or on hard drive) for a reasonable price, and in the end, isn't that what matters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted December 23, 2008 Members Share Posted December 23, 2008 There are several microphones that have a similar "look" to the CV-12 - the Aphex 460, Carvin CTM100 and Telefunken USA R-F-T M16 all share similar cosmetics and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the housings were all sourced from the same factory in China. Well these posts said the housing was different but the actual circuit is the same. The CV-12 is certainly not a dull or dark sounding microphone Lee; it does lean towards bright... but it doesn't come across as harshly to my ears as a lot of the low cost, made in China condensers I've heard - and like you, I'm not a big fan of that harsh / overly hyped upper mids / top end. It's not that I don't like "bright" mikes though - the C12 and ELA M251 are both what I'd consider to be fairly "bright" microphones - it's that gritty and harsh top that so many of the M.I.C. condensers exhibit that I find annoying. Yeah, ditto... I'm certainly nuts about the C12 and 251, their particular "brightness" is silky and natural and spacious. The Chinese mics tend to be overly "forward" and harsh as you say. And that's what I heard in this sample clip of the CV-12. Of course that could be due to a lot of other factors - the pre, or the converter, or whatever... but just saying what I heard in the clip. I should probably call up George to see if that anecdote from earlier in the thread is true or not. HAHA I was thinking of doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Red Ant Posted December 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted December 23, 2008 low price tag would suggest. I'll see if I can find / bump that too... Sorry Phil, i haven't been a regular poster on this forum (though I certainly should be, and am now remedying that situation ) and didn't know I was flogging a tired old horse I'm waiting on Mitch Marcoulier (an Avant dealer here in SoCal, and an amazing engineer/tech/gearhead) to put together a "matched" pair of CV-12s for me - I can't say enough good things about this mic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Red Ant Posted December 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted December 23, 2008 I should probably call up George to see if that anecdote from earlier in the thread is true or not. I heard it from Mitch Marcoulier. He's a very solid guy and I doubt he'd be making stuff up. That being said, I wasn't there to hear the comment, so... YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted December 23, 2008 Members Share Posted December 23, 2008 I have a 414 B/XLS, which is one of the newer models. Yeah, and it's my understanding that the XLS is NOT hyped like the XLII. I think people (and I'm speaking in general, not to anyone here) get too carried away with comparing "new" to "old" sometimes. The 414 may not be what it used to be, but it can still be a very useful mic to have around. No, it isn't as nice as my Microtech-Gefell MT-70S, but it also cost around half as much. It can be used to get a great sound down on tape (er, or on hard drive) for a reasonable price, and in the end, isn't that what matters? Sure, and I agree. It's just that it would suck if you've heard an older model and you bought a new one thinking specifically that it would sound like the old one, and then it doesn't. There are plenty of good new mics out there, and I think if the circuit or capsule changes all that much it should just be given a different model name. People may buy a certain model of mic because they are familiar with its sonic characteristics, and therefore it's better not to "deceive" them by putting the same model name on a new mic. It's not as if people aren't buying new mics on their own merit. Also, the point was made that there are currently two different models of 414 being made, and that's worth mentioning because apparently they do sound different, and the specs reflect that. Beyond that, you're right, all that matters is whether it works for you. But since most of us don't have infinite time and money to make comparisons, it's helpful to be specific about what to expect from a mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I heard it from Mitch Marcoulier. He's a very solid guy and I doubt he'd be making stuff up. That being said, I wasn't there to hear the comment, so... YMMV I am not going to say he was making anything up - he may very well have been passing along anecdotal information he heard from somewhere else - but I just got off the phone with George, and he does not have, nor does he recall ever having tried a CV-12. He's too busy to post himself right now [sounded like he was getting ready to go somewhere], but he did ask me to relay some comments to the forum, so here they are, paraphrased and recounted to the best of my ability: George has indeed commented favorably / recommended some microphones. His two main criteria are 1] do they live up to the claims made by their builders and 2] how do they sound? Price is not a concern for him, and he doesn't use that as a criteria - they either "work" or they don't, they either live up to the claims, or they don't. George didn't seem overly upset regarding the story, but as I said, I wanted to see if he indeed had a positive impression of the CV-12, and he hasn't used one. The issue with stories like this is that people will assume it's true, then go out and buy the microphone, based on a endorsement or positive comment that he supposedly made, and then potentially be disappointed, so I think he appreciates the opportunity to clear things up when statements are associated with him that he didn't actually make. This is not a slight to you Red Ant, and it's good to have you with us. But I know George well enough [and my respect for him is darn near limitless] to know how he feels about endorsements, and I thought I should give him the opportunity to clear things up. I'll be seeing George Massenburg in a couple of weeks, and I'll discuss it with him a bit more then if I get the chance. And as always, he's more than welcome to post here himself to either elaborate on his comments or to clear things up further - especially if I got anything "wrong" regarding his comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 PS I didn't mention Mitch Marcoulier's name to George - I hadn't read that he's who you had heard that comment from prior to talking to GM on the phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Red Ant Posted December 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted December 24, 2008 to know how he feels about endorsements, and I thought I should give him the opportunity to clear things up. I'll be seeing George Massenburg in a couple of weeks, and I'll discuss it with him a bit more then if I get the chance. And as always, he's more than welcome to post here himself to either elaborate on his comments or to clear things up further - especially if I got anything "wrong" regarding his comments. Got it - well, stories do get told As for Mr. Massenburg, I don't know him personally, by my respect for him is boundless as well, both for his immense knowledge of all things audio and for his incredible ears. Just the Little Feat albums that he did alone would have put him in my personal pantheon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted December 24, 2008 Members Share Posted December 24, 2008 Yeah, and it's my understanding that the XLS is NOT hyped like the XLII. Sure, and I agree. It's just that it would suck if you've heard an older model and you bought a new one thinking specifically that it would sound like the old one, and then it doesn't. There are plenty of good new mics out there, and I think if the circuit or capsule changes all that much it should just be given a different model name. People may buy a certain model of mic because they are familiar with its sonic characteristics, and therefore it's better not to "deceive" them by putting the same model name on a new mic. It's not as if people aren't buying new mics on their own merit. Also, the point was made that there are currently two different models of 414 being made, and that's worth mentioning because apparently they do sound different, and the specs reflect that. Beyond that, you're right, all that matters is whether it works for you. But since most of us don't have infinite time and money to make comparisons, it's helpful to be specific about what to expect from a mic. Well, that's understandable. I guess I'm just cynical, because honestly as soon as someone starts selling a product by claiming it's a much cheaper version of something legendary that sounds just as good, I pretty much tune them out. I probably miss out on some pretty decent bargains that way, but the over-the-top advertising claims really turn me off to products. If it uses similar components to something, sure, let me know. But don't tell me it's just as good (or better!) for a tenth of the price. I just want to know how it stands on its own merits. But since we're talking about new versus old, the Microtech Gefell MT 71S I mentioned above (70S? I can never remember which it is, but it's the cardioid-only version) uses an M7 capsule. And yes, the advertising mentions that. But I don't recall ever hearing anyone claim it was "just like X famous mic from the past!" or I probably would have been much less likely to get one. Instead it was advertised as being a solid mic that happened to have the same capsule as some other more well-known mics, but was its own design. I much prefer that approach. It does sound freaking great, though. I've no idea how it matches up against vintage M7-capsule mics, but it certainly holds its own against anything else in my small mic locker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members offramp Posted December 24, 2008 Members Share Posted December 24, 2008 The original 414s had a CK12 capsule... I have one of these. I want to say the # is something like 2399 or somethin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members offramp Posted December 24, 2008 Members Share Posted December 24, 2008 Has anyone tried the Avant Electronics CV-12? I was absolutely blown away by this mics performance and build. I tested it side by side with a pristine C-12 on male vocals, female vocals, acoustic guitars and as a room mic. It came VERY close to the C12... i mean scary close. The high end on the C12 was just a bit more "silky"... but for $500 street, its an insanely great buy. I heard (from a reliable source) that when Massenburg did the test he started cursing and bitching about "what the hell have I spent all this money on C12s for?!?". Highly recommend checking one out. And no, I do NOT work for Avant Okay, thanks A-HOLE! THANKS A LOT!! {censored} me I just recently got G.A.S. under control, and you had to go and {censored} IT ALL UP. There'll be a {censored}-filled Christmas card in your mailbox very soon. :eekphil::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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