A little help please with mixing/mastering...

[ajm786]

I have many pieces of work that I made using my new Motif XS 8. I mix down using Cakewalk 7 Producer Edition, and then master using Adobe Soundbooth CS3.

 

Here's the problem. Whenever I have a bass track in a song, I lose a great deal of the "oomph" of the sonic sweetness of the entire song, REGARDLESS of what bass sound I use. I mean, I want the bass to give life to the song, to be thundering yet clear, but not so much that either a) everything else loses clarity, or b) I have to lower the bass so much that it sounds so weak to compensate for it being absolutely overwhelming.

 

I've played around with lots of equalizers and still haven't gotten much anywhere. When it comes down to it, if I want to get a good mix, loud enough to have all instruments heard (including lower bass parts/kick drums), I end up having to remove a LOT of the bass/kick drum/lower frequency sounds by drastically lowering any frequency below 60hz.

 

It's getting annoying, because my mixes sound absolutely great on my Motif BEFORE I mixdown/master, and then after that, it's just .

 

I'm just looking for that nice, punchy, clear bass. Can anyone offer any tips/suggestions? I'd highly appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

[UstadKhanAli]

If you want a mix with good, clear, bass...well, there's so many places to go.

 

First of all, make sure the bass itself is good and clear and well-defined and even. If this means compressing, sure, but that's not always the answer.

 

You're probably experiencing frequency masking, with many overlapping frequencies from the drums, instruments, maybe the vocals. Use HPFs and LPFs to clean that out, and allow enough room for each instrument to breathe. Make cuts in the midrange to allow the bass to poke through.

 

HPF @ 100Hz on all instruments except the kick and bass.

 

Work with a great, uncluttered arrangement.

 

Make sure that you can hear what you are doing by providing a decent acoustic space for your monitors. Check your work on other speakers, in the car, and headphones if necessary. Your mix should sound great on all of those things. If it doesn't, tweak your mix further.

 

You may be having too much bass in your mixes anyway. A lot of speakers cannot reproduce thundering lows below 60Hz. There's nothing wrong with lowering below 60Hz, even significantly. I basically have nothing existing below 40Hz, and I guarantee you that my mixes are warm and the bass is present. If you listen to a lot of the classic rock stuff from the '70s or even the '80s stuff, which is really warm-sounding, you may notice that there isn't all THAT much stuff going on below 45-55Hz a lot of times (some hip-hop stuff excepted). The Zeppelin stuff has far less in the low end than people think, but it sounds well-defined, present, and warm.

[ajm786]

 

If you want a mix with good, clear, bass...well, there's so many places to go. First of all, make sure the bass itself is good and clear and well-defined and even. If this means compressing, sure, but that's not always the answer. You're probably experiencing frequency masking, with many overlapping frequencies from the drums, instruments, maybe the vocals. Use HPFs and LPFs to clean that out, and allow enough room for each instrument to breathe. Make cuts in the midrange to allow the bass to poke through. HPF @ 100Hz on all instruments except the kick and bass. Work with a great, uncluttered arrangement. Make sure that you can hear what you are doing by providing a decent acoustic space for your monitors. Check your work on other speakers, in the car, and headphones if necessary. Your mix should sound great on all of those things. If it doesn't, tweak your mix further. You may be having too much bass in your mixes anyway. A lot of speakers cannot reproduce thundering lows below 60Hz. There's nothing wrong with lowering below 60Hz, even significantly. I basically have nothing existing below 40Hz, and I guarantee you that my mixes are warm and the bass is present. If you listen to a lot of the classic rock stuff from the '70s or even the '80s stuff, which is really warm-sounding, you may notice that there isn't all THAT much stuff going on below 45-55Hz a lot of times (some hip-hop stuff excepted). The Zeppelin stuff has far less in the low end than people think, but it sounds well-defined, present, and warm.

 

 

Thanks so much for the tips.

 

Yes, in my research, some people have recommended to me that I compress the tracks. Now, is it possible for you to apply HPF and LPF PER TRACK (Motif XS)? I was only aware of doing that in the final mastering stage. If I can apply per track, that would be great.

 

The music I make are instrumental only, no vocals. They are sort of New Age type. I try my best to make sure that the mix is uncluttered, and thanks to a lot of information here, I learned to spread the sound stage a bit using pan, rather than just sticking EVERYTHING in the middle. So that helped clear things up a bit, but my problem still remains regarding the bass issue.

 

I basically finished an instrumental last night, and I am going to try mixing and mastering today using your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

And you are correct. When I finish ANY of my tracks, I make it a point to play it on speakers at work, home, on different computers, in my car, and on my MP3 phone. It always sounds good, but when I listen to some of my favorite artists (like Yanni) and hear how those songs are mastered, I feel like the sonic quality (especially the bass and drum parts) put my mixes to shame. I KNOW I can do better, especially with the equipment I have.

[Lee Knight]

Get the individual parts out of the Motif and into Cakewalk. Have it on separate tracks. This way you can limit the bass, HPF other things... etc. You can only do so much on a 2 track mix. Get it parted out and into Cakewalk first.

 

Do you need help with that?

[WRGKMC]

I been using a limiter when recording bass direct which prevents peaking yet retains some dynamics. the other thing I been using is waves RBass as a plugin only. I occasionally EQ the bass with a rolloff at 40hz, then a notch at 750 and maybe a bump at 2500 for some finger sounds. I roll off guitars about 500, then drums I may have a notch at 500. Of course depending on the songs these may vary quite a a bit, but for the low frequencies notching the lows at two different FQs will prevent some masking and allow some seperate space between the two.

 

After mixing during mastering I do an overall EQ check and maybe some tweaking, followed by Multiband compression which is an important step.

Want the object of multiband is to get the lower frequencies leveled, while still allowing the mids and highs to provide some dynamics. Again I use the waves plugins here because it has some smart technology built in that helps tremendously. You play the song through and you get a threshold level reference for each band of FQs which takes some of the guesswork out.

After using the multiband you simply use a good limiter to bring the volume levels up.

 

I been using this step by step guide and have achieved superior results in most cases. You can use substitute plugs but it does achive high quality results so its worth looking at.

 

 

http://www.har-bal.com/index.php?/mastering-tutorial.php

[ajm786]

Get the individual parts out of the Motif and into Cakewalk. Have it on separate tracks. This way you can limit the bass, HPF other things... etc. You can only do so much on a 2 track mix. Get it parted out and into Cakewalk first. Do you need help with that?

 

 

They are on separate tracks on the Motif. BTW, it's a Motif XS (16 separate fully functional tracks).

 

I checked up and saw that I can apply compressors and effects PER TRACK on the Motif. Not to mention that each track (voice) has it's own EQ.

 

I could do it on Cakewalk. That's exactly what I do before final mixdown; I import the entire project onto Cakewalk, adjust volumes as best I can, and then final mixdown.

 

Question: if I have MIDI tracks, how can I apply any type of HPF or almost any type of filters at all, unless I convert those MIDI to audio first? Or am I just misunderstanding? Usually, I know from experience that almost no filter works for MIDI (in Cakewalk, unless it's low level like pan, reverb, chorus, volume). Most of the HPF/EQ filters are reserved for audio only.

[ajm786]

I been using a limiter when recording bass direct which prevents peaking yet retains some dynamics. the other thing I been using is waves RBass as a plugin only. I occasionally EQ the bass with a rolloff at 40hz, then a notch at 750 and maybe a bump at 2500 for some finger sounds. I roll off guitars about 500, then drums I may have a notch at 500. Of course depending on the songs these may vary quite a a bit, but for the low frequencies notching the lows at two different FQs will prevent some masking and allow some seperate space between the two. After mixing during mastering I do an overall EQ check and maybe some tweaking, followed by Multiband compression which is an important step. Want the object of multiband is to get the lower frequencies leveled, while still allowing the mids and highs to provide some dynamics. Again I use the waves plugins here because it has some smart technology built in that helps tremendously. You play the song through and you get a threshold level reference for each band of FQs which takes some of the guesswork out. After using the multiband you simply use a good limiter to bring the volume levels up. I been using this step by step guide and have achieved superior results in most cases. You can use substitute plugs but it does achive high quality results so its worth looking at. http://www.har-bal.com/index.php?/mastering-tutorial.php

 

The funny thing is, I have this tutorial in PDF form sitting right on my desktop for the past few weeks, but haven't bothered to look at it, because I have to BUY the tool in order to use the tutorial . So being a bit broke already, I just left it. I guess it's time to revisit it, hey?

[UstadKhanAli]

 

And you are correct. When I finish ANY of my tracks, I make it a point to play it on speakers at work, home, on different computers, in my car, and on my MP3 phone. It always sounds good, but when I listen to some of my favorite artists (like Yanni) and hear how those songs are mastered, I feel like the sonic quality (especially the bass and drum parts) put my mixes to shame. I KNOW I can do better, especially with the equipment I have.

 

 

That's such a humbling thing. I'm good at mixing, but still...

 

I track and mix a rock band, and I think it sounds really great, and I'm getting near to being finished with the mix - I think - and I start comparing it to really well-recorded stuff in a similar genre...

 

...then I know I still have some work to do!!!

 

But each time we mix, hopefully we are learning new ways of listening to things, new techniques, new approaches, and incorporating them and just knowing how to listen to what the song needs.

[Jimbroni]

A lot of good suggestions here, but also consider the mastering portion as well.

 

Its a bitch. The urge to attempt to get your mixes up to modern standard often leads inexperienced guys to use way too much limiter or loudness maximizers on the final stage. Doing this will kill the punch from your bass.

 

The better balanced your mix is the easier it will be to simply turn the volume up, rather than the alternative which is slamming it with a limiter. This will crunch or sizzle your highend and turn your lowend into mush. very easily.

 

All that carving you do in the mix to get rid of mud, gets pushed right back up when you use too much limiter on the master. When you add bumps for clarity, that can easily turn into harshness when you use too much limiter.

 

Its matter of knowing when to say when with the loudness thing and only you can answer that. Just remember the more you push the final loudness the more your mixing cues get mushed back together.

[UstadKhanAli]

I didn't even bother with the mastering comments. This is because I felt that much of the problems he was experiencing came from the mix. Also, I typed that during my lunch break, and really, there's only so much time during a lunch break!!!

 

But I do know that when I sent some mixes in the past to a mastering engineer, the bottom end and some of the sibilance came up more than I hoped on a couple of tracks, and I ended up remixing them and sending them back in so that the mixes would sound better. This happened a few years ago, and it was largely in part to what you pointed out - the more modern, aggressive heavily-limited sort of mastering that goes on more commonly now.

[ajm786]

I just tried a new mix and this time used a compressor. It sounds very good, much better than before. However I have not yet imported it into Cakewalk for mix/mixdown yet, so I have yet to see its behavior during mixdown.

[wwwjd]

Try Broadcast

http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst.htm

 

and/or give Buzmaxi3 VST a shot

http://www.x-buz.com/BuzMaxi3.html

 

Also, if your DAW has any kind of EQ with a frequency graph, compare CD's you like with yours. You may need to notch down some bass at certain places to clean it up. If you don't have a graph, try INSPECTOR

http://www.rndigital.org/Plug-ins/Inspector/inspector.html

Their pic on that page is SORT OF the standard looking curve, but the section tween 400 and around 8k should be more strait across, then sloping off after that

[ajm786]

 

Also, if your DAW has any kind of EQ with a frequency graph, compare CD's you like with yours. You may need to notch down some bass at certain places to clean it up. If you don't have a graph, try INSPECTOR http://www.rndigital.org/Plug-ins/Inspector/inspector.html Their pic on that page is SORT OF the standard looking curve, but the section tween 400 and around 8k should be more strait across, then sloping off after that

 

 

That is great idea.

 

What would I be looking for? Would I be looking for the graph of my song to be as identical as possible to what I like to listen to, and then tweak it further to bring out the unique sound of my song rather than just blindly following anything else?

[wwwjd]

here's the thing: it WILL be subjective. IF you have good monitors in a decent room, listen for things that are "out of line" or too loud or too soft. If you understand BASS frequencies are tween 50 and 500[ish] you can look at the graph to see of there is a part that is sticking out way above the rest. Then tweak an EQ on those frequencies to make it sound better. As an example, I have old tunes mixed where the drum machine snare was just way too bottomy sounding - mostly because I was an idiot when I first started mixing. But, I can dial in an EQ SPIKE DOWN around the 160hz-ish spot and clean up that awful snare and the rest still sounds fine.

 

If you look at graphs of commercial songs you will see a hump in the bass area, a generally flat section across the mids, then a Linear slope off the highend. Also note that there is not any large spike of frequencies sticking up unless it is a solo or something, because they compress everything and notch out peaks in mastering.

 

Most importantly, use your ears first, and the graph second. Listen and compare AUDIABLY first, then use the graph to confirm. If you just tweak EQ so it matches the graph of another song, you are not being true to your own song, and will probably end up with crap.

 

Another trick on EQ is to pick a frequency, say 1000hz, set the EQ to that, then tighten up the "Q" or width, drop it's gain about -25, and then start moving the FREQ down slowly until you HEAR it pull out the trouble spot. Stop there, then you can thin or widen the WDITH until it sounds right.

 

Good luck, but more imortantly, HAVE FUN!

[Synonym Music]

I have many pieces of work that I made using my new Motif XS 8. I mix down using Cakewalk 7 Producer Edition, and then master using Adobe Soundbooth CS3. Here's the problem. Whenever I have a bass track in a song, I lose a great deal of the "oomph" of the sonic sweetness of the entire song, REGARDLESS of what bass sound I use. I mean, I want the bass to give life to the song, to be thundering yet clear, but not so much that either a) everything else loses clarity, or b) I have to lower the bass so much that it sounds so weak to compensate for it being absolutely overwhelming. I've played around with lots of equalizers and still haven't gotten much anywhere. When it comes down to it, if I want to get a good mix, loud enough to have all instruments heard (including lower bass parts/kick drums), I end up having to remove a LOT of the bass/kick drum/lower frequency sounds by drastically lowering any frequency below 60hz. It's getting annoying, because my mixes sound absolutely great on my Motif BEFORE I mixdown/master, and then after that, it's just . I'm just looking for that nice, punchy, clear bass. Can anyone offer any tips/suggestions? I'd highly appreciate it. Thanks!

Well if you don't want us to shoot around in the dark, let's hear it.

[ajm786]

 

Well if you don't want us to shoot around in the dark, let's hear it.

 

 

Sorry for taking so long guys.

 

I used a VCM compressor directly on the Motif XS as a master effect applied to the entire mix. It's done WONDERS. Compared to my previous works, I can't believe I've been missing this much. The bass really stands out now, and the entire song sounds much more lively.

 

I spent all last night mastering this new song. In addition, I've did on this song what I've never done before: adjust individual EQs per part (track/instrument). I took all the advice you guys gave me and tried to apply it. While not the absolute best, I came away satisfied how this song came out compared to how it sounded raw; it's NOTHING like the original. The original is unbelievably unpolished now that I listen to it. Thanks for all the help guys.

 

Suggestions on how this one came out is welcome. I'm posting a small clip for you to listen to. The name of the song is "A Dream to Share".

 

Thanks again.

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ak0eyv

[Synonym Music]

 

Sorry for taking so long guys. I used a VCM compressor directly on the Motif XS as a master effect applied to the entire mix. It's done WONDERS. Compared to my previous works, I can't believe I've been missing this much. The bass really stands out now, and the entire song sounds much more lively. I spent all last night mastering this new song. In addition, I've did on this song what I've never done before: adjust individual EQs per part (track/instrument). I took all the advice you guys gave me and tried to apply it. While not the absolute best, I came away satisfied how this song came out compared to how it sounded raw; it's NOTHING like the original. The original is unbelievably unpolished now that I listen to it. Thanks for all the help guys. Suggestions on how this one came out is welcome. I'm posting a small clip for you to listen to. The name of the song is "A Dream to Share". Thanks again. http://www.sendspace.com/file/ak0eyv

 

Sounds a little bass light to me, lack of dynamics, too many low mids. I'm guessing by your post it sounds better though I have no reference.

[wwwjd]

yeah, now don't go nuts with the MASTERING to FIX it. Get the bestest MIX you can FIRST. If you had to do a LOT in mastering to make it work, the original MIX needs to be worked better. Mastering should be cake icing, not open heart surgery. But your clip sounds good

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Sounds a little bass light to me, lack of dynamics, too many low mids. I'm guessing by your post it sounds better though I have no reference.

 

Reference: $135 Bose computer speakers

 

It doesn't sound bass-light to me at all. In fact, it sounds quite balanced. I don't hear the low mids issue at all.

 

I would agree, however, that it lacks a bit of dynamics, as it sounds quite compressed. That said, I'm not sure how dynamic this kind of music should be. I largely hear this in the piano, for some reason. It's nothing agregious, at any rate, and overall it sounds quite good.

 

My issue with it is more that I'm not real keen on the drum sound. I would have put more of a sense of space on the snare, which seem incongruous with the rest of the mix spatially. Also, I would have used a warmer, deeper kick, as the current one sounds a bit "cardboardy" to my ears.

 

Overall, though, I think you did quite a good job.

 

I hope this helps!!!!

[Synonym Music]

Reference to the previous mix. I stay on K240s mostly. There's definitely a cloudiness to the low mids - notice the volume of the piano and its reverberation, though it does have a very unique height that you don't often hear.

 

Maybe my bass evaluation was off. That's what I get for pulling out No Strings Attached right before listening to this.

[ajm786]

Overall, though, I think you did quite a good job. I hope this helps!!!!

 

Thanks! I'm glad you guys liked it!

 

And I have another question. Is it MIXING or MASTERING how an artist can get a piano or any other instrument to sound like it's "sitting", "nesting" or "resting" in between lows and highs?

[UstadKhanAli]

If there is a problem such as you are describing, a possible fix would be to EQ the reverb returns, possibly by notching out some low mids or with HPF.

[Synonym Music]

Thanks for your input. I really do appreciate it, because it'll help me get better in the future in my mastering skills. Can you perhaps give me some tips on how to get a piano sound to stand out without getting too muddy or compressed? Perhaps I should lower the reverb? Should I adjust the EQ for the piano also as I did with the drums (except opposite, cutting off at lower Hz and raising the top)? Also, may I ask who's the artist for "No String Attached" that you mentioned?

 

You think I'm kidding, but I'm not. Mick Guzauski is quite good at enhancing the syncopation in that kind of music, and keeps the (admittedly cheap) samples from sounding too cheap. But it's so goddamn hyped up. Anyone can hear that. A lot of the boyz/girlz music uses very fast compression to enhance attack; there's a lot of 1/4, 1/8, and also 1/2 note delays to keep rhythm; there are even terraced dynamics with the vocals. You never hear these big open spots on the vocals when the music is moving - there's always a delay or repeated phrase to fill that gap so nothing loses energy. That's hyped up.

 

Just a thought on (artificial) dynamics.

 

For piano it's about tone and space. You already have quite a few parts in the low mids that could really use a few breaths of air (volume automation), and the piano reverb is stepping all over them. What's worse is all these low mids distort @ 0:58.. It's not the bass or kick or guitars like most music. That's a pretty significant sign they could use some scaling back.

 

Cut the low mids on the piano verb like Ken said. Choose different samples if it's not sitting right, because it's not really an instrument you can EQ much and keep natural. I'd go with a little more attack (high mids) and noise (highs), then work the image until it was more symmetrical.

 

The bass thins out every time it could open up every couple bars. I'd change snares and hats before I'd change the kick, though none of the percussion is driving the music in this instance.

[ajm786]

 

For piano it's about tone and space. You already have quite a few parts in the low mids that could really use a few breaths of air (volume automation), and the piano reverb is stepping all over them. What's worse is all these low mids distort @ 0:58.. It's not the bass or kick or guitars like most music. That's a pretty significant sign they could use some scaling back. Cut the low mids on the piano verb like Ken said. Choose different samples if it's not sitting right, because it's not really an instrument you can EQ much and keep natural. I'd go with a little more attack (high mids) and noise (highs), then work the image until it was more symmetrical. The bass thins out every time it could open up every couple bars. I'd change snares and hats before I'd change the kick, though none of the percussion is driving the music in this instance.

 

 

I'm going to go back and check the EQ levels on the piano. Admittedly, I did not adjust any EQ on it because I thought it sounded fine. Going back and listening to 0:58 at the clip, I don't really hear any distortion, because, again (my own fault) I do NOT have high quality studio monitors; I'm mastering on my Athena AS-B1 driven by an Onkyo TX-SR500 with direct input (no bass/treble manipulation).

 

The drum portion probably does need to be adjusted, so I'll go and review that one again.

 

Thanks for the input!

[ajm786]

Sorry to bring this older thread back to life.

 

I finished another song, and used all the tricks in the book (everything you guys taught/suggested to me) on this new track, so I'd like to get your input. I addressed the cardboardy bass sound, and properly EQ'd all instruments properly (cutoff, reverb/chorus level returns, etc). I did the best I possibly could. I hope it shows improvement over my last track.

 

A bit earlier in this thread, wwwjd stated that mastering is NOT like open heart surgery, it should be icing on the cake. He's absolutely right. This time around, most of the leveling and EQing was done in the mixing (THAT was like open heart surgery!!!), and mastering only took about 20-30 minutes; it was so easy!!! The track sounded great!

 

The name of this song is "One For All Time."

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/86y3v0

 

One thing, however that I did have an issue with is that although I had good success with EQing the low end and the high end properly, all of my EQing seemed to make a "mid-end hole"; I tried my best to alleviate this via the EQ, but I still think it's going to be an issue in the future. It might be my equipment; I am recording in via SPDIF through my X-Fi sound card; I had the gain level for the sound card's SPDIF input set above 0.0. I think this might have been a contributing factor, but I'm still going to need some assistance on mid-end leveling to avoid my music sounding like it's stuck in a paper cone. I admit, once again, that I'm not on reference studio monitors, and this definitely contributes to the problem.

 

Another thing I am a bit confused about. When I listen to the final track as an uncompressed WAV file, it sounds absolutely perfect, and my volume level meters in Adobe Soundbooth never go above 0.20; however, when I convert the track to an MP3, it still sounds absolutely perfect, but my meter is telling me that there is clipping (goes over 0.00), but I can't hear any distortion or clipping. Any idea on what's going on there?