Is eBay being destroyed by fraud?

[HEPNOTIC]

nah ebay isnt being destroyed. they got these cool protective features. one is called "feedback". use it to see who has a reliable history. another one is called "paypal", which will give you a refund if you dont receive an item.

[Minibucker]

I've sold a few things on Ebay and been lucky, but Maxx61 makes a good point about the "item not as described" scam. AFAIK Paypal pretty much sides with the buyer, and there's little to stop a buyer from claiming "item not as described" to burn the seller.

 

A common variation of the scam is to claim ANY kind of defect and ask for a partial refund (hoping that the seller doesn't want to go through the trouble of doing a full return) to essentially get a discount after that sale.

 

 

BTW... for sellers.... is it true that it's worthless to put "all sales final... sold as-is... no returns" in your ad if you accept Paypal? Apparently if you accept Paypal... you accept returns!

[simbasa]

Originally posted by red|dragon No. Just noob idiots like you don't know how to watch out for scams. I just bought an amp off ebay 3 days ago.

Oh sorry for being a noob and not knowing what to look for. So it's our fault and not ebays for having to know what to look for? I got ripped off for my first guitar purchase and am finally getting my money back after the asshole got caught. There is absolutely NO REASON that anyone should be getting ripped off on ebay because they are NOOBS. You sound like a real winner to me:thu: :thu:

[simbasa]

 

Originally posted by xupernaut [Q. As for people bidding and not paying, thats just some bratty looser bull crap. I hate them loosers.

 

Yea that's a bummer. Really though, ebay does not do enough to protect the buyers. At least sellers still have their product if the deal does not go through....no more ebay for me. I was ripped off by a guy that had over 20 different accounts and kept getting suspended for not sending his product. The good folks at ebay knew about this the whole time and knew it was him on different accounts acccording to the detective that busted the guy. At least I get my $$ back. Now THAT'S bull{censored}!!!!

[sitamoia50]

A little common sense goes a long way. A lot of common sense goes even further. If I have any doubts whatsoever about an item or the seller etc. I usually steer clear........if he has pages full of positive feedback then he's obviously doing something right. If he has his share of negatives or just questionable activity in general (people giving warnings to other ebayers on the persons feedback pages) that's usually a good indication that something is amiss. Again, common sense.

[simbasa]

Originally posted by HEPNOTIC nah ebay isnt being destroyed. they got these cool protective features. one is called "feedback". use it to see who has a reliable history. another one is called "paypal", which will give you a refund if you dont receive an item.

Yea it's real easy to manipulate these things. You can sign on a new account ,sell cheap stuff like cds for a few months, get great feedback and then sell $$$ items like guitars and amps and then rip people off who see your great feedback. Happens all the damn time and a detective investigation and interview with ebay confirmed this . They did not want to tell him that the guy he was investigating had over 20 different accounts suspended . They also knew it was him the whole time. They are crooks as much as the seller.

[simbasa]

Originally posted by sitamoia50 A little common sense goes a long way. A lot of common sense goes even further. If I have any doubts whatsoever about an item or the seller etc. I usually steer clear........if he has pages full of positive feedback then he's obviously doing something right. If he has his share of negatives or just questionable activity in general (people giving warnings to other ebayers on the persons feedback pages) that's usually a good indication that something is amiss. Again, common sense.

Read my above post. It is easy to manipulate feedback. If you really want to buy on ebay the best thing is 100 percent positive feedback and if they have the account for at least 2 years. Still , I am done with ebay and their greedy pockets. I have better transactions on Craigslist.

[ending_zero]

Perhaps you guys should quit posting detailed instructions (in the form of complaints) on how to rip people off on eBay.

 

I've had relatively few problems and they haven't been any worse this year than last. I rarely sell guitars or related items.

[simbasa]

Originally posted by ending_zero Perhaps you guys should quit posting detailed instructions (in the form of complaints) on how to rip people off on eBay. I've had relatively few problems and they haven't been any worse this year than last. I rarely sell guitars or related items.

Funny, but I see this as giving some people the heads up at what really goes on there. Is the glass half full or is it half empty? If someone wants to use the info to rip people off, then perhaps ebay should do more to stop the fraud instead of knowingly letting it go on. It's getting to the point where the government needs to step in and hold their hand.

[bgmacaw]

 

Originally posted by Minibucker BTW... for sellers.... is it true that it's worthless to put "all sales final... sold as-is... no returns" in your ad if you accept Paypal? Apparently if you accept Paypal... you accept returns!

 

 

In most cases, yes, this is true. The one way you might get around this is to have a very clear description of every defect and completely and photographically document everything about the item. Starting around September, PayPal started cracking down on chargeback fraud because, as Maxx61 indicated, their "the buyer is always right" policy was starting to cost them business.

[bgmacaw]

Originally posted by ending_zero I rarely sell guitars or related items.

 

 

I've found fishermen and women buying inexpensive jewelry to be much more honest than musicians.

[Maxx61]

Originally posted by sitamoia50 A little common sense goes a long way. A lot of common sense goes even further. If I have any doubts whatsoever about an item or the seller etc. I usually steer clear........if he has pages full of positive feedback then he's obviously doing something right. If he has his share of negatives or just questionable activity in general (people giving warnings to other ebayers on the persons feedback pages) that's usually a good indication that something is amiss. Again, common sense.

 

Your comment does not address the maladies of eBay from a SELLERS perspective, only a buyers. It's quite easy these days for legit eBay members to have their accounts phished and you're assuming the member with a 99.7% feedback over five years is a great person to sell to but scammers aren't phishing accounts from newbies with 55% feedback so when your $1500 item is long gone and paypal sides with the scam artist because from paypal's perspective, the BUYER deserves more rights than the SELLER, you'll feel the pinch.

For example, paypal BURIES the fact that you only qualify for seller's protection if your feedback score is above 98%. If it's 97.7, you're out of luck. Also, they extend this "protection" to an amount of $1,000 or less....so losing a $2200 Tom Anderson to an eBay scam, only to jump through the incredible hoops to even attempt to retain $1,000 from its loss will be difficult.

 

Something else to consider, from a seller's perspective. When these scammers do a "bait and switch" and then file a "not as described" claim, often times the seller NEVER receives his original item back and the buyer STILL gets their charge back.

 

If you want to read some horror stories, go to paypalsucks.com It will blow your mind. As I wrote earlier, paypal can be a convenient way to do business between two honorable people but it has literally become the preferred avenue of business for those seeking to prey on those who desire that convenience.

[thisgoesto11]

I'm pretty much done with Ebay and I'm all about Craigslist these days. Living in Austin there is always a ton of gear to be had at really good prices.

[Busk]

I still stick with dealers mostly. I get fair deals: $699 for my Nomad 45 off G-Base. That's the same as Ebay.

 

I am still looking to snipe a MIJ strat from time to time.

[bgmacaw]

Originally posted by Maxx61 your $1500 item is long gone and paypal sides with the scam artist

 

And if you sent that $1500 item to an address different than the credit card owner's confirmed address and without signature confirmation, whos fault would that be? Who do you think would eat that fraud cost with any other credit card processor?

 

The bottom line is that if, as a seller, you take PayPal you assume credit card risks and you have to abide by their rules. If you use a different credit card processor you'll still have risks and rules to deal with, many of them more strict than PayPal's. If you don't like this risk or the rules, only take money orders from a source that you can easily confirm as legitimate or don't sell online at all.

 

Originally posted by Maxx61 If you want to read some horror stories, go to paypalsucks.com It will blow your mind.

 

A site paided for by a competing online credit card processing company. Obviously they're very objective in what they say.

[Hudman]

No. Ebay is working great for me.

 

I only buy from people with excellent feedback and a decent number of transactions.

 

My ONLY complaint is with rookie buyers. It seems that many of them are clueless when it comes to bidding. They bid before reading the ad.

[JOLLY]

It's definitely declined over the years

[sitamoia50]

Originally posted by Maxx61 Your comment does not address the maladies of eBay from a SELLERS perspective, only a buyers. It's quite easy these days for legit eBay members to have their accounts phished and you're assuming the member with a 99.7% feedback over five years is a great person to sell to but scammers aren't phishing accounts from newbies with 55% feedback so when your $1500 item is long gone and paypal sides with the scam artist because from paypal's perspective, the BUYER deserves more rights than the SELLER, you'll feel the pinch. For example, paypal BURIES the fact that you only qualify for seller's protection if your feedback score is above 98%. If it's 97.7, you're out of luck. Also, they extend this "protection" to an amount of $1,000 or less....so losing a $2200 Tom Anderson to an eBay scam, only to jump through the incredible hoops to even attempt to retain $1,000 from its loss will be difficult. Something else to consider, from a seller's perspective. When these scammers do a "bait and switch" and then file a "not as described" claim, often times the seller NEVER receives his original item back and the buyer STILL gets their charge back. If you want to read some horror stories, go to paypalsucks.com It will blow your mind. As I wrote earlier, paypal can be a convenient way to do business between two honorable people but it has literally become the preferred avenue of business for those seeking to prey on those who desire that convenience.

You are absolutely right. I was only looking at it from a buyers point of view. Believe me, I'm definately not blind to all the s**t that goes on with ebay. I never trust anyone......period. I've got quite a few awesome deals on ebay that is the reason i enjoy it, but I will say this, Luckily i havent got ripped off (knock on wood) yet and have had pretty good luck so far with the guitars ive bought and sold. I'm sure my attitude will change if something drastic happens, but I dont think I'll ever go as far as not using ebay anymore. You do make a great point though, and I always keep my eyes open and try to be as cautious as possible while using common sense. Oh Yeah, i have read those horror stories you referred too. totally sucks.

[cincy_cosmo]

The whole story of why I started the thread is that now I am a 'dealer', although maybe the worlds tiniest dealer, it seems I have had a fair share of auctions killed by buyers using stolen IDs or other scammers. It has happened almost each week...someone bids on a higher end guitar, and then by the time I send the eBay invoice, the ID is canceled or revoked. I don't really understand why someone would do this...it's kinda like electronic vandalism.

 

Although eBay quickly refunds the auction fees in these instances, I've still lost the interest of any legitmate buyer watching the auction. When you relist the item it then takes a day for it to start showing up in searches etc. I even have a 'sluggish' buyer going now, one who is very slow making the payment, even though he is still communicating and insisting on seeing the deal through. I don't mind this as much as others may, but when I bid on something, I make sure I can fund the purchase first.

 

I'm no newbie to eBay. I've been buying and selling there for years. But I never ever had this much trouble in years of selling privately. Sells and purchase always seemed to go through quickly and without any bad events.

 

I've even had the filters set up to reject bidders with recent negative feedback etc etc. I just set the option to demand immediate pay, but I thoroughly believe that that will cost me potiential buyers.

 

So I guess my question stands, is eBay getting so bad that it isn't even worth the bother anymore, or is it that the moment I put a store logo in the auction, I'm painting a target on the item saying "screw me"?

[bgmacaw]

 

Originally posted by cincy_cosmo it seems I have had a fair share of auctions killed by buyers using stolen IDs or other scammers.

 

 

These auctions are 'havesting' auctions done with a hijacked ID. The scammers get a low FB ID by phishing and use it to do BIN's or auction snipe software on hundreds or even thousands of listings. Their goal is to get the legit emails and other info on as many eBay members as they can. Then, in turn, they phish those addresses hoping to get more ID's they can use in bogus listing scams and so forth. Unfortunately, eBay has done very little to combat this problem when they could easily do so by placing various limits on accounts, IP address monitoring, and other common security methods.

 

 

Originally posted by cincy_cosmo So I guess my question stands, is eBay getting so bad that it isn't even worth the bother anymore, or is it that the moment I put a store logo in the auction, I'm painting a target on the item saying "screw me"?

 

 

I think it depends a lot on the category you sell in. Some just seem to attract the Nigerian, Chinese and Eastern European scammers. Computers & Networking and Consumer Electronics are the worst and Musical Instruments are probably a close second. OTOH, I had very little fraud trouble when I was selling wargaming and other classic games and none at all with fishing tackle and arts and crafts supplies (my wife's business).

 

Where eBay got bad for me was with the fees. It's become impractical to sell items under about $30-50 on a regular basis. I'll probably sell some fishing stuff seaonally there though when I can get enough repeat and combined order business to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, I'll work other, lower cost, online fixed price sales avenues.

[Minibucker]

And if you sent that $1500 item to an address different than the credit card owner's confirmed address and without signature confirmation

 

I know that there's signature confirmation on certain types of packages... but that's only to prove that the package was recieved. Is there anyway to get a signature that the person has inspected an item, and they sign if they want it.. or don't sign and it goes back?

 

Could an item be delivered and held at say a UPS store (we have one nearby) and the buyer goes to pick it up, but the clerk makes sure they inspect it?

 

 

(This is a good thread!)

[magentaplacenta]

UPS isn't responsible for the recipient's inspection. All they care about is delivering the package, and it can be in pieces inside for all they care.

 

HOWEVER, one of the best things we as buyers of guitars (especially high end) can - and should - do is to have things shipped to us "hold and notify". You'll get a note on your door telling you your package has arrived and you need to come pick it up at their distribution plant. Where this comes in great is:

 

When you go pick it up, YOU INSPECT THE ITEM ON SITE. Physically open up the box and make sure the item is OK. If it's been damaged, at least you're right there at UPS, they've seen you open it up and you've said, "hey, this is damaged!" You can also get employee names/employee IDs (or whatever) to back up your claim process. You have a UPS witness basically.

[cincy_cosmo]

 

Originally posted by magentaplacenta UPS isn't responsible for the recipient's inspection. All they care about is delivering the package, and it can be in pieces inside for all they care. HOWEVER, one of the best things we as buyers of guitars (especially high end) can - and should - do is to have things shipped to us "hold and notify". You'll get a note on your door telling you your package has arrived and you need to come pick it up at their distribution plant. Where this comes in great is: When you go pick it up, YOU INSPECT THE ITEM ON SITE. Physically open up the box and make sure the item is OK. If it's been damaged, at least you're right there at UPS, they've seen you open it up and you've said, "hey, this is damaged!" You can also get employee names/employee IDs (or whatever) to back up your claim process. You have a UPS witness basically.

 

 

I've been using FEDEX....is UPS "Hold and Notify" instigated by the sender or the receiver?

[dewees]

I'm close to deciding that I just won't sell on eBay. I will buy, though. I'm a very reasonable buyer - I don't expect a brand new guitar for half the retail price.

 

I have decided I won't take PayPal. I will still make purchases with it, though.

[Maxx61]

Originally posted by bgmacaw And if you sent that $1500 item to an address different than the credit card owner's confirmed address and without signature confirmation, whos fault would that be? Who do you think would eat that fraud cost with any other credit card processor? The bottom line is that if, as a seller, you take PayPal you assume credit card risks and you have to abide by their rules. If you use a different credit card processor you'll still have risks and rules to deal with, many of them more strict than PayPal's. If you don't like this risk or the rules, only take money orders from a source that you can easily confirm as legitimate or don't sell online at all. A site paided for by a competing online credit card processing company. Obviously they're very objective in what they say.

 

You missed my previous post so I will reiterate an experience so you can clearly see the point I was making. My friend sold a Tom Anderson to a buyer with a confirmed address on their paypal account. The seller paid with their credit card. When they received the guitar, they placed a $100 guitar in the case, took a photo and filed a "item not as described" claim with paypal. The "signature confirmation" form does not prove what was inside the case, only that the original package was delivered and signed by either the receipient or someone at the residence.

Paypal looked at the "evidence" provided by the fraudulent buyer and because my friend could not actually "prove" the guitar case had contained a $2500 Tom Anderson, paypal sided with the scam artist. The horror story continues....in order for paypal to complete the claim, the buyer has to send the item back to the seller so my friend got his case back and you guessed it...with the $100 guitar inside.

So, not only was my friend out of his Tom Anderson, he also did not receive ANY money for it.

Your response about confirmed address does not matter when the person AT the confirmed address is the one doing the scam.

As for questioning the validity of paypalsucks.com as a site which informs, the hundreds of individuals who have posted their horror stories on the site are not employed by anyone associated with the site.

As I wrote earlier, I've been a member of eBay since their first year of service and likewise, with paypal. Both have gone downhill to the point where it has become more of a hassle to deal with them than any convenience. Only within the confines of a forum where there is established longevity between members does paypal make sense to me as a seller. Otherwise, if you want an item of mine bad enough, it's off to the USPS for a money order or to your bank for a cashier's check.

As I said, paypal is convenient for buyers but for sellers, it's become a cesspool of fraud.