Loud Stage Volume + Soft PA system VS. Soft Stage Volume + Loud PA System

[skunky_funk]

Say you're gonna gig in a stadium, what would you prefer? An arsenal of guitar and bass amp stacks with a properly set-up PA system or a compact guitar and bass amp setup with a loud PA?

 

Me thinks the wall of Marshalls is being ditched by the improvement in PA systems...

[coyote-1]

The better soundguys I've worked with have no problem getting good FOH even when stage sound level is high, nor do they have trouble getting a good monitor mix. So it depends on the context - if you have a heavy rock band it just doesn't feel right to be on a quiet stage, while a jazz trio clearly can't have overwhelming stage volume.

[guitarmook]

I'm happy and comfortable with the tone from my Tweed Deluxe... when I move to an outside stage, I usually move up in power a little, but I'm gonna try just going w/ stereo deluxes... when the rest of the band is also comfortable at lower volumes (brushes drummer, acoustic guitar, 3 singers), it's good for us to be in our comfort zone, and let the PA do the work if necessary.

[Lee Knight]

My band has switched over to the guitarists using 10watt Marshalls and Hiwatts. I'm still (bass) using 300 watts but only a 2x10 cab. We do power pop where the vocals are king. Guitars rock through these little amps and it's just so much easier hearing whats going on when we're not exciting all the room modes on stage...

 

... having said that, we played on a outdoor festival stage and they crapped out way too soon. Next time we go outside we'll switch to the 30 watt combos.

 

It works for us.

[daklander]

Medium to Large Venue thought only.

 

My thought is simply the stage volume should be no louder than what is needed and should not be a real part of FOH. If it is, it's too loud, other than maybe the first couple of rows or tables. If you're 50 feet back and hearing the stage it's too loud.

[MrKnobs]

The loudest instrument on the stage sets the overall volume for the band, because the soundman has to restore the mix by bringing up the other instruments to match. A little additional headroom is needed for equalization.

 

The rest is whatever the band is comfortable with to feel the music and play their best.

 

So a dimed 50 watt Marshall stack in a small club will ruin the sound for everyone, but a 100 watt stack at an outdoor show would probably be OK.

 

It's really not all that complicated. Get the tone you need on stage at a reasonable volume for the size of the club, then let the PA do the heavy lifting.

 

Terry D.

[franknputer]

Too loud of a stage problem is never "not a problem" - it may be worked with if you have a good PA, but you can't fight physics. Take a bass amp that's turned up too loud - it bleeds into EVERYTHING. And so, as you bring up the other stuff to compensate, you bring up even MORE bass, which adds to your problem.

 

Stacks were designed for large venues when PAs has no power. Dragging them into a club setting is just dumb.

[The Soundman]

I've worked with national acts that would have 9 Marshall cabs stacked on BOTH sides of the drummer (in a big 3X3 wall) with a head on each one. This was a fairly large venue, but while miking the guitars, the stage hands would show me which ONE of the cabs would actually be "on."

 

One local band actually had the folding affair, like a japanese curtain, that looked like 9 Marshall cabs all stacked up when unfolded, complete with phony LED's on the faux heads at the top. They used a double stack behind it, which was still almost too much stage volume.

 

I also got to work with some musicians who had about 80% hearing loss in their 30's, due to excessive stage volume. The final answer is: play loud enough so it is comfortable on stage for what you are doing. Let your soundman mix for the audience, and if he tells you your stage volume is too high, turn it down.

[where02190]

I'll take no backline onstage and everyone on IEMs please.

 

However, for a stadium show, it really doesn't matter. I'd simply time align the PA (most definitely a line array) to the backline.

 

Given a choice of one or the other, I'd go for the reasonable backilne volume.

[coyote-1]

ARRRGHHH! I despise this line of thinking.

 

Originally posted by franknputer Too loud of a stage problem is never "not a problem" - it may be worked with if you have a good PA, but you can't fight physics. Take a bass amp that's turned up too loud - it bleeds into EVERYTHING. And so, as you bring up the other stuff to compensate, you bring up even MORE bass, which adds to your problem. Stacks were designed for large venues when PAs has no power. Dragging them into a club setting is just dumb.

 

Stacks are designed to do something besides sheer volume. They are designed to get the sound up into your ears. Because you can now hear yourself properly AND get the tone benefits of floor-coupling, you can actually turn the volume DOWN. Anyone who thinks stacks are only about uber-volume is just dumb....

 

As for bleed: A bit of bleed is NOT a problem for a competent soundman. If your band is playing Deep Purple or Alice in Chains, you simply cannot do it properly without a bit of stage volume; it has to be enough to let the drummer rock and the guitar feed back when needed. A properly EQ'd vocal mic will not pick up the bass to any huge degree. If you're looking to create a pristine recording with perfect separation then perhaps bleed is an issue, but in a rock context it does not wreck the mix if the soundman knows his stuff.

[TimmyP]

For a given SPL out in the audience, a stack will not sound as loud to the player as a 1x12 that's pointed right at his head.

 

Yes, a good soundman can get a good mix right even with stage volume that's too high, but not at a volume level that is appropriate for the room.

 

What's wrong with wanting to get as close as possible to album quality in a live venue? Until you've heard what can be achieved when the stage volume is LOW. you don't know what you are missing. I've heard a lot of good mixes, but only one that made me say "damn, that's good!", and that was one where everyone but the guitarist was on ears, and he was the only one who had a stage rig (a combo on a stand and pointed at his head - from the side).

[halljams]

Live sound can be a nightmare MOST of the time.

because

A) the band doesn't understand the complexities of getting the PA to work in conjunction with the stage volume and

B) because there are far too many live "sound" guys who don't have a {censored}ing clue. That said, there are some bloody brilliant ones, and it is a HARD job to do right.

 

Drums are the the first and formost focus and issue.

Usually, and i say usually based on the fact that some knob doesn't have a bunch of Marshalls cranked up on stage, the drums are the loudest thing on stage.

 

Any guitarist, and i am one btw, needs only one speaker that produces a good sound(unless you have the multi-amp approach for different tone combinations) and that can be used as the source for the PA.

If the sound man has some skill that sound can be sent appropriately to the monitors, and sound incredible, and to the mains and sound huge!

 

But it comes back to the drums because in most cases the clubs are smaller and the volume of the drums from the stage limits the quality of the drum sound in the PA and also sets a baseline for the basic volume that the other sounds in the PA have to be at to mix appropriately with the drum volume.

 

Same with the stage Bass sound, it can't be too hot or you end up with loose mushy {censored} floating around messing everything up and the FOH guy can't do anything about it but crank the PA up above it.

 

It helps to have great sounding stage gear but a real cohesive live sound can't happen in a small or even medium room if the stage sound is too high. If your stage sound is louder than the drums on stage you are far too loud. Most guitar amps get their best tone below or around drum kit level anyway.

 

Quieter stage sound is unquestionably the way to go, but not to the point where you are not getting some air moving and having fun and getting good tones.

Performers have to keep in mind that they are working with the FOH and he/she is there to make them sound good .

Having an obnoxious loud stage sound is basically like giving your best friend the finger right before they save your life and it shows real unprofessional ignorance about how the sound is conveyed to the audience.

[franknputer]

 

Originally posted by coyote-1 Stacks are designed to do something besides sheer volume. They are designed to get the sound up into your ears . Because you can now hear yourself properly AND get the tone benefits of floor-coupling, you can actually turn the volume DOWN. Anyone who thinks stacks are only about uber-volume is just dumb.... As for bleed: A bit of bleed is NOT a problem for a competent soundman. If your band is playing Deep Purple or Alice in Chains, you simply cannot do it properly without a bit of stage volume; it has to be enough to let the drummer rock and the guitar feed back when needed. A properly EQ'd vocal mic will not pick up the bass to any huge degree. If you're looking to create a pristine recording with perfect separation then perhaps bleed is an issue, but in a rock context it does not wreck the mix if the soundman knows his stuff.

 

 

BZZZZZT! Wrong. An open mic is like an ear. If you can hear something, it's going in the mic. EQ can help, but if your amp is simply too loud you can't EQ around it. We're not talking 'a bit of bleed', we're talking massive bleed - and any decent soundman will tell you that the best fix is to TURN IT DOWN AT THE SOURCE.

 

I'm not saying that you have to be whisper-quiet onstage, but quite honestly I despise the line of thinking that loud=rock. Ask Pete Townsend if he wishes he could still hear properly.

 

Oh, and BTW: monitor wedges are designed to get the sound up to your ears. How many stories have we heard about bands (KISS, Van Halen to name a few) who played in front of a wall of amps - that were not plugged in?

[coyote-1]

But what is "appropriate for the room"?? If a club owner chooses to have metal bands, he's got to expect they're gonna be loud. If metal bands are too loud for his room (read: the room is small and/or has too much sound reflection), he ought consider not booking metal bands! You cannot seriously expect a TommyLee wannabe to be lightly tapping his crash cymbals all night. And if a patron walks into a club that advertises heavy rock bands, that patron ought expect the bands to be loud.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to get as close to album-quality as possible in a live venue - unless doing so kills the band's energy. Remember that live music is not exclusively about perfect sound and perfect execution. Live playing is VISUAL, it's about ENERGY, it's about TAKING CHANCES. If you want a band playing its record and sounding exactly like the record, you can listen to the record.

 

"Mr.Bernstein? Could you please have the tympanists play this section of the 1812 Overture much softer? They are messing up the FOH. Oh, and please tell the cannon section to turn waaaay the hell down too - they're bleeding into everything."

 

 

Originally posted by TimmyP Yes, a good soundman can get a good mix right even with stage volume that's too high, but not at a volume level that is appropriate for the room. What's wrong with wanting to get as close as possible to album quality in a live venue? Until you've heard what can be achieved when the stage volume is LOW. you don't know what you are missing. I've heard a lot of good mixes, but only one that made me say "damn, that's good!", and that was one where everyone but the guitarist was on ears, and he was the only one who had a stage rig (a combo on a stand and pointed at his head - from the side).

 

[halljams]

LOL, club owners, aware of the intricacies of the sound in their rooms??????

I've never met one who could tie his own shoe laces let alone book bands by style according to the sound of their room!

 

Sorry, had to make fun of club owners for a second.

 

As a band and as members in a band aware of our instruments and how they work, it is largely our responsibility to take part in the overall sound of the band.

For example, say you are the drummer, in a small room with a bunch of mirrors behind you and glass down the side walls.... YOU DON"T SMASH THE CYMBALS!

In fact this gig may be a great time to practice hitting lighter overall.

 

John Frikkin Bonham hit the cymabals lightly in huge venues, he was aware of the balance of the sound coming from his instrument and took responsibility for it. Why smash those aweful things if it's not needed.

 

 

Etc Etc

[Boinker]

Originally posted by halljams LOL, club owners, aware of the intricacies of the sound in their rooms?????? I've never met one who could tie his own shoe laces let alone book bands by style according to the sound of their room! Sorry, had to make fun of club owners for a second. As a band and as members in a band aware of our instruments and how they work, it is largely our responsibility to take part in the overall sound of the band. For example, say you are the drummer, in a small room with a bunch of mirrors behind you and glass down the side walls.... YOU DON"T SMASH THE CYMBALS! In fact this gig may be a great time to practice hitting lighter overall. John Frikkin Bonham hit the cymabals lightly in huge venues, he was aware of the balance of the sound coming from his instrument and took responsibility for it. Why smash those aweful things if it's not needed. Etc Etc

 

Good Lord, don't get me started on club owners... the sight of a 4x12 guitar cabinet sends them into tantrums...

[fantasticsound]

First, it takes a good PA and a good soundman to accomplish what you seem to think every PA and a good soundman should be capable of. Unless you're playing through a Clair Bros, Meyer, Adamson, JBL PROFESSIONAL (And no, JBL SR is not professional) or similar high end system, you can't expect the PA to overcome stupid loud stage volume. I don't care who's behind the mixer. With one of those systems it's possible, but if the PA maxes out the room limitations you're f*&ked.

 

I've described, several times, the first KISS farewell tour in which it took me 30 seconds, with earplugs from FOH to identify each song because of how loud it was in the Nashville Arena. I've heard many concerts there. Mixed well and not overblowing the arena it can sound great. But it is possible for even the best PA to reach SPL's that are too high for the space.

 

 

Originally posted by coyote-1 ..."Mr.Bernstein? Could you please have the tympanists play this section of the 1812 Overture much softer? They are messing up the FOH. Oh, and please tell the cannon section to turn waaaay the hell down too - they're bleeding into everything."

 

 

Really dumb example, Coyote.

 

Mr. Bernstein is the sound mixer. But he mixes with a baton and facial expressions rather than a mixer, and he always mixes to the room. Do you really think he would have the orchestra play full strength in a room that doesn't provide the proper acoustics for such a performance?

 

He doesn't worry about whether a musician will turn down when he directs them to. It's either the turn down or pack their instrument and leave... forever. And when he tells them to turn down it's exactly what Chris and others described, turn it down at the source.

 

I don't care whether the audience minds or not. I will not turn a PA up to 140dB SPL at FOH to override a godawful- loud stage. (I've seen it done, and yes, I mean 140dB SPL and no, I'm not exaggerating. I was sitting right next to the dB meter and it was too loud with my earplugs in.)

[MrKnobs]

I'm waiting for someone to invent an "un-reverb." I've done so many gigs in huge, bloody, reflective metal barns with concrete floors I've lost count. We provide the PA, the club provides the reverb.

 

I used to open up my FX rack and tell the two reverbs, "Well, I guess you guys get the night off."

 

Terry D.

[coyote-1]

First off, that was not an example - it was an exaggeration on my part. Obviously; after all, no one would fire a real cannon in a concert hall! Sorry the humor was lost on you.

 

But now that you mention it, more and more concert halls are supplying sound reinforcement, just as Broadway theaters did fifteen years ago. So it's no longer just the conductor holding the keys - the possibility of a soundman attempting to tell the conductor what to do becomes a looming hazard.

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound Really dumb example, Coyote . Mr. Bernstein is the sound mixer. But he mixes with a baton and facial expressions rather than a mixer, and he always mixes to the room.

 

But I have a question. Why would you attempt to override a stupid-loud stage? Why wouldn't you merely let the stage out into the arena, and only bring up those few elements that need reinforcement?

[fantasticsound]

Yes, sound reinforcement is in play at many orchestral venues, but there is no reason for the electronic sound mixer to tell anyone to turn up or down. The mix is inherently produced by the conductor, not the sound engineer. They don't have issues of one section playing too loud, uncontrolled.

 

That's not to say there aren't serious issues to be considered, as a sound engineer providing reinforcement for orchestras. Jack Alexander described a gig with the London Philharmonic down in Florida (Jack's a Chicagoan, and while he's toured everywhere, was walking into a bee hive by bringing in a friend's rig from out of the local union's sphere of influence.. and kickbacks. ) The aural and political maneuvering required to pull off a clean performance was mindboggling.

 

Why to override the stage volume? That's easy.

 

The sound coming off a stage from amps that are too loud or a monitor system facing away from the audience, working on all 8 cylinders sounds like crap from the audiences perspective.

 

How many club PA's are set up to allow time alignment of stage and PA levels? Try just about none. The massive combination of stage and PA levels in clubs usually adds up to a whole lot of phase issues. Pretty much an audio soup.

 

But hey, if you want to sound like crap that's entirely up to you.

 

And I tell every local act I work with, "I'll work hard to let you play the way you want, but every time I suggest something it's because it's necessary for good sound to you audience." Usually I get thanks just for saying that.

 

I don't use that approach with name acts because I work at their pleasure. So long as it's not dangerous or illegal, I'll give them what they want. Of course, I wouldn't stay with an act that pushed those guidelines. It's just not worth the aggravation.

[franknputer]

Nicely put, Neil. I haven't had time to get long-winded on the subject myself, but you pretty much summed up most of my opinion as well.

 

And just to be clear - my opinion has been formed over the last 20 years (20 years?!? ) of live mixing bands of all kinds in many different settings.

 

Does that make me a genius? No - but it does show that I'm talking from experience. YMMV.