Phil O'Keefe Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Hey folks, can you help me out here? I'm currently working with a hard rock band in the studio. They actually sing, as opposed to screaming everything. Anyway, they have two singers: The lead singer likes to double track everything. The guitarist who does all the BGV's is pretty well trained vocally, but there's only one of him, so stacking harmonies live is beyond their capabilities. Here's the questions they have: They want to be able to "thicken" the lead vocalist live... I suggested they use a DDL and a harmonizer (set a few cents sharp, with a second pitch shifter set a few cents flat) to thicken things up a bit. But then they asked about vocal processors for live use. They wanted something that would generate harmonies based on a input signal from a vocalist. Now we're getting beyond my product knowledge area... I would THINK that "pop divas" are clocking the whole show to MIDI, and sequencing some of the instrumental parts... and since they're probably doing things that way, it shouldn't be any problem to send MIDI data to the harmonizers so that they generate a major third at the appropriate part of the song, and a minor third when that's appropriate, etc. But short of clocking / sequencing the show (which this band doesn't really want to do), I have no idea of how you'd go about doing something like that - short of doing an endless toe tap dance on a footpedal, which they'd rather NOT do. So if you have any suggestions on good vocal processing / harmony generation products for live use, and methods to best use them, I'm all ears, and will pass your comments and suggestions along. Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 Digitech used to make a nice key programable vocal processor, and of course the Antares autotune will also do this. The thing to remember is they need to set the key for each song, otherwise it won't track the intervals properly and, well we know what the result will be. Solution #2 could be to have the studio vocals on playback with a click. Of course the obvious solution is to add singers, but that's not always feasible financially. I recently did a power pop trio that now has the same issue with the live show, both with vocals and guitars!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 Thanks Where. Digitech used to make a nice key programable vocal processor, and of course the Antares autotune will also do this. The thing to remember is they need to set the key for each song, otherwise it won't track the intervals properly and, well we know what the result will be. What about songs where they have a key change? They have several of those. I guess they would require a switch in mid-song... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Johnny Storm Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 An Eventide Ultra-Harmonizer will probably do everything they need in a live performance situation. I think some switching between settings will still be necessary, either by the singer or a hired sound guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gearmike Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 Phil, I've got the new TC voice processor / harmonizer thingy here in the shop... Wanna come and play with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 We have one of the less-expensive TC procs at the station. I bet that's the ticket - it can do 4 harmonies, don't sound too bad for voice-in-a-box. Around $500 IIRC, so it's reasonably priced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tedster Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 All neat...but they won't do "AHHHS" etc. I've found that the time it takes to program stuff out...I can fudge some backup tracks for accompaniment. Cheating? Arguably...but I don't think it's anymore "cheating" than using all that other stuff...y'know..."which one is cheating? A...using a harmonizer...or B...recording backing tracks yourself" (shrug) Phil...do you remember ClatterAmy? She used to hang around the Lowdown. I caught their duo live...they used some tracks to thicken up what they were doing...not enough to detract from the "live" aspect of the show. I think anything is fair game, depending on the emphasis placed on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kiwiburger Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 Personally I think the auto harmony things are aimed at your average cover band. The real pro's simply pre-record their BV's. Actually, they probably also pre-record their LV's too, but they don't usually want you to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 The DigiTech and TC-Helicon voice processors are really pretty amazing devices which I've used live more than once. Yes, there is a bit of setup making sure you get the right mode and key, but it's uncanny how well they follow your voice. Just remember to mix them a bit in the background, if the "real" voice dominates the synthesized ones sound more real. I particularly like that they pick up on my nuances, and also, that you can add other effects -- delays, etc. Borrow one and play with it. Just be aware that it takes a bit of practice to nail using them -- I'd say maybe 8-10 hours of rehearsal time for a veteran such as yourself , 20 hours for a newbie. Once you figure it out, though, you're good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Thanks for the great suggestions everyone - I told the band that you wouldn't let us down, and of course, you didn't. Mike, I'd love to come check it out... but I can never GET out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 I remember a blues band I saw many, many moons ago...(doodle-oodle-oo! doodle-oodle-oo! doodle-oodle-oo!) They had a single horn player, mainly trumpet although IIRC he played a bit of sax too. He had the old Digitech harmony processor - was that the 1st one that did modal harmony? Anyhow, it really sounded great for that application. He did a really convincing job of being a horn section! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Tedster, I think your suggestion about using "tracks" is completely viable... just not for these guys. The drummer doesn't like click tracks very much, and many of their songs have mad tempos, lots of change ups, key changes, etc. I don't think he'd do well playing with a click track or BG tracks live. But for a little "sweetening", and if done with taste and in moderation, I don't have a problem with people who use tracks, sequencers or whatnot live. It's just when someone is PRETENDING to play or sing, and it's ALL canned that I really find it to be objectionable "cheating". Thanks again for the suggestions folks - I'll pass them along, and I'm sure the band thanks you for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aeon Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 low-cost: Digitech IPS-33B (up to 3 parts) mid-cost: TC Helicon (varies) spendy: Eventide DSP7K or above (up to 8 parts) needless to say, you get what you pay for! cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paully Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 We use an older Digitech Studio Vocalist for harmonies. As most any parameter can be set via C.Controller, Pitchwheel or Note-on, they are ideal for running the whole track and auto-keying modal, pitch shift, harmonies, doubles and other effects including muting. A simple midi sequencer can store the triggers as a song. The rub is in the live application: timing. That can be addressed IF the software can follow tempo change cues from the stage. A steady kick, snare, etc. can lead the sequencer, if triggered from the stage(or soundman with a small keyboard w/midi out, or a stick and a midi drum pad). I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but it does work. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 AFA key changes, aqll these units can be controlled via midi, and a simple controller can change the user program to allow key changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jazmaan Posted August 16, 2005 Members Share Posted August 16, 2005 Does the band have a keyboard player? He could midi trigger the chord changes to the harmonizer in real-time while they sing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 16, 2005 Author Share Posted August 16, 2005 Nope, no keyboard player. Two guitars, bass and drums, and a seperate lead vocalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gearmike Posted August 16, 2005 Members Share Posted August 16, 2005 Phil, TC Helicon has a box with foot switches that the vocalist could control on the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members d. gauss Posted August 17, 2005 Members Share Posted August 17, 2005 aye yi yi..... put the doubler on the lead vocalist, but... good two part stuff is tuff to beat. live your ear will fill in all kinds of parts that aren't really there. worked for everly brothers and alice in chains....i say screw the harmony box... -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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