SONY PCM-D1 is shipping - should I buy one?

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Manual:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/docs/manuals/pcmd1manual.pdf

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayResource?m=0&sm=0&p=0&sp=0&id=82662&d=10001

*.pdf:
http://media.shoreviewdistribution.com/pdf/PCMD1.pdf

Japanese:
http://www.ecat.sony.co.jp/products/catalog/PCM-D1.pdf

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide My experience with SONY devices are: It does what the advertising says and nothing more.

 

I have to say, that's a pretty sharp observation. Doing just what it says and nothing more is very Sony.

 

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide It has only ONE Mic Input (Stereo Mini Jack). There is no degradation when using a stereo mini jack compared to XLR.

 

Theoretically, I agree. But you know, these little doo-dads have a small window of tolerance beyond which they crap out.

 

There's a theory that kitchen appliances have built-in obselescence so that customers will buy new ones every few years. Really old fridgerators, for example, never needed replacement. For the matter, it's not all that clear why GE can't make a light bulb that lasts forever, except that no one would buy another one.

 

Many people who replaced their walkmans did so because they "didn't work anymore" when in fact, the problem was no bigger than a minijack headphone output that had become unseated through the ebb and flow of cable strain. A part costing all of .02 would bring the entire device to its knees, and the customer responded by purchasing another $200 walkman. Bad for customers, great for Sony.

 

So these mini-jacks - an Achilles heel for the customer and a cash cow for the company - are dubious on something designed to last beyond the shelf life of yogurt, and be operated in a professional environment. The Sony pro audio rep assured me that this was not "your father's mini-jack" which is great if it were true. I recall he may have said it was brass or had brass fittings or something about brass or rhymed with brass, and was solidly connected to the unit's gizzards.

 

On top of that, I don't believe most people, including me, are going to use that jack all that much. The thing is designed as an all-in-one, and plugging a bunch of other stuff into it undermines its primary and beautifully-designed simplicity. Really, the whole point of the thing seems to be that you don't have to plug anything into it. The mini-jack, in a way, is an exclamation point to that core design philosophy. Anyone who buys this thing only to plug other things into it will be at first discouraged, and ultimately punished, by having to go through a minijack.

 

So, the mini-jack does give me pause, but not that much pause.

 

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide If you wanna use your Soundfield microphones, you need a pre-amp since the SONY PCM-D1 has no volume control on the inputs.

 

That's interesting, and unsettling about the lack of volume control on inputs (even through menus?). However, the Soundfield includes its own preamp as part of the system, and is riddled with control knobs, so that really wouldn't be an issue, at least as long as I used the Soundfield rather than a more conventional stereo microphone. (everything I said above notwithsanding - i.e. for the most part I would use it by itself).

 

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide The only question left for me: Is the built in XY stereo microphone comparable with my R

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide Manual: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/docs/manuals/pcmd1manual.pdf http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayResource?m=0&sm=0&p=0&sp=0&id=82662&d=10001 *.pdf: http://media.shoreviewdistribution.com/pdf/PCMD1.pdf Japanese: http://www.ecat.sony.co.jp/products/catalog/PCM-D1.pdf

 

Thanks (and domo arigato) for the links. You are a wizard.

 

-PL&B

[Brittanylips]

Oh, and by the way, I LOVE your shoes.

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[amplayer]

Originally posted by Brittanylips In any case, as I sipped my coffee and attempted to reduce the pile absent divine intervention, I noticed that December's Pro Audio Review featured a PCM-D1 review by John Gatski and company. Basically, he says what everyone else is saying, that the thing sounds wonderful, has unusually fine components inside, and will give your RODE (slash the O) a run for its money. Say what you want about its goofy meters or puny inputs, the buzz on the street is that it sounds great. -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

 

 

I must say that I never read PAR. I used to read it occasionally until I realized that EVERY review of EVERY product was ALWAYS positive. Have they changed? I gave up on PAR a couple years ago.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Originally posted by Brittanylips Oh, and by the way, I LOVE your shoes. -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

Nihwee-deebiru

[MikeRivers]

When I looked it over at the AES show, I was puzzled by just what kind of customer would be able to use one effectively. The rep couldn't suggest anything either.

 

There are several reasons why I wouldn't buy one.

 

 

 

There are probalby some other reasons, but I can't think of them now. While I still don't want to buy a flash memory recorder because of the limited recording capacity, I think I'd prefer the TASCAM HD-P2 to the Sony as a matter of practicality. My dealer has been wanting me to come by and play with both of them but I haven't had a chance yet. One of these days I'll have an opinion based on experience rather than impressions - but impressions are worth something, too.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide Nihwee-deebiru

 

Do itashi ma{censored}e

 

Piisu, ai, and Brittanylips

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by amplayer I must say that I never read PAR. I used to read it occasionally until I realized that EVERY review of EVERY product was ALWAYS positive. Have they changed? I gave up on PAR a couple years ago.

 

I know what you mean.

 

I wrote a review for a heavilly-advertised product from a well-known company for MIX Magazine a few years ago. For a company known for great products, this particular one sucked. The engineers knew it too - they were attempting to expand downward into a new market and produced something uncharacteristically horrible.

 

A handful of students visited my studio one day and, with student honesty, spontaneity and no prompting from me, declared that the thing sucked when A/B

[MrKnobs]

I'll bet it's tough to be a magazine reviewer. Here you are, working for a publication that's completely dependent on ad revenue, just barely making it from month to month, and then some big manufacturer sends you some piece of hyped crap like an M-Audio Tampon to review.

What do you do? How do you stay objective? My guess is you'd have to choose your words very carefully, erring toward the "do no harm" to the magazine/manufacturer side. Otherwise, well, you know. Even "damned by faint praise" might be too risky for some editors.

Probably a fairly steep slope down into ad-less bankruptcy once a magazine gets a reputation for writing negative reviews.

So, until there's a mag like Consumer Reports for MI gear (CR buys all the stuff they review, and carries no ads), I'm done putting any faith in magazine gear reviews. It's too hard to read between the lines, and the subscription fees are a bit steep just to learn the solid facts like how many knobs it has and whether there's a make up gain after the compressor. I can go to the company website for that info.

- And also for a glowing review.

Terry D.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by MrKnobs I'll bet it's tough to be a magazine reviewer. Here you are, working for a publication that's completely dependent on ad revenue, just barely making it from month to month, and then some big manufacturer sends you some piece of hyped crap like an M-Audio Tampon to review. What do you do? How do you stay objective? My guess is you'd have to choose your words very carefully, erring toward the "do no harm" to the magazine/manufacturer side. Otherwise, well, you know. Even "damned by faint praise" might be too risky for some editors. Probably a fairly steep slope down into ad-less bankruptcy once a magazine gets a reputation for writing negative reviews. So, until there's a mag like Consumer Reports for MI gear (CR buys all the stuff they review, and carries no ads), I'm done putting any faith in magazine gear reviews. It's too hard to read between the lines, and the subscription fees are a bit steep just to learn the solid facts like how many knobs it has and whether there's a make up gain after the compressor. I can go to the company website for that info. - And also for a glowing review. Terry D.

Personally, I'm not a "magazine reviewer," I just do it every now and then if I'm in the mood. I have no stake in the magazine or the product, and just say what I think and let the chips fall where they may.

But you're right, the audio review process is imperfect. Practices that are common in audio reviewing would actually be illegal in some other fields. And then there's all sorts of subtle thing - the Grace brothers are so nice, even if they didn't make such nice preamps, it's hard to imagine anyone who knows them writing anything bad about their stuff. And everyone knows everyone.

From that emerges a few really good writers who, over time, you realize you can trust.

And for the rest, because the stakes are so low (it's not as if a misleading audio review will have a grave effect on people's lives) it fankly doesn't matter all that much, and the people who are really interested in product evaluation can find it in internet forums better than in a magazine, so there's no real movement for change.

You're right though - it'd be great to have a CR of audio. Maybe as more people become involved in music-making, a growing market would be able to support that type of ad-free periodical.

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[amplayer]

I think the HC user gear reviews ARE the CR of audio products. Unfortunately, most user reviews are for lower end gear and guitar. I think there are 2 primary reasons for that:
1) Professionals feel they don't have time to do a review
2) Professionals either don't know or don't care about HC

As a guitarist though, I find lots of great info here on HC about guitar gear through user reviews.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by MikeRivers
When I looked it over at the AES show, I was puzzled by just what kind of customer would be able to use one effectively. The rep couldn't suggest anything either.

There are several reasons why I wouldn't buy one.

Damn you Mike Rivers for pointing out legitimate flaws! Just when I wanted to embrace this as perfect!

While legitimate flaws, for me, the issues you point out are not deal breakers. Aside from the chocolate chip cookie, is there anything on this planet that is perfect? Nonetheless, you make some very good points. (And that's a beautifully formatted list, I might add, as well).

my thoughts on your thoughts:

- mic positioning - do you know what the front is? I agree that it's clumsier to position an entire recorder vs. a demure little mic, but this, I guess, is the price for an all-in-one.

-minijack - my thoughts (expressed in length above) - not a good thing, but not a deal breaker. With lack of phantom power, my guess is that they decided to choose no phantom power rather than provide bad phantom power, as the m-audio all-in-one has been accused of.

- 96/24 resolution - classical-level recording - I disagree with you here. I think a bunch of people would cherish the high resolution capability of this thing. I would. Combining an easy to use all-in-one with phenomenal specs is something that I can get mileage out of.

- not stealth - I know what you mean. That too bothers me, that you would, you know, put this on a tripod in front of a performance and the audience will see the whole thing rather than some innocuous little mics. Still, its usefulness as an all-in-one for circumstances in which that doesn't matter outweigh the lack of stealth. And maybe it's not all that bad if an audience can see it.

- memory type - OK, but not the end of the world

- steal-a-bility - well, what are you gonna do?

Anyway, good points, but I still like the damn thing, at least from a distance.

-PL&B

[Anderton]

>

 

The problem with a CR type approach is the limited number of crtieria that can be evaluated objectively with music gear. Get 10 different guitarists in a room, and they'll disagree vehemently on which amp/modeler/whatever is best.

 

Where CR shines is sheer volume -- they can print repair records on 188,000 washing machines, and that's damn useful info. But ultimately, a lot of what CR is about is shootouts: This TV has a better picture, this TV has better speakers, this one broke down when we plugged it in, etc.

 

CR reviews things that are sold in the millions. No amp or multitrack recorder sells as much as a car, a big-screen TV, a dryer, whatever. So, to try to put together a publication that can do shootouts of a huge number of items, but which are bought in small quantities and therefore have a small audience, is daunting.

 

As to a previous comment...yes, Pro Reviews are the wave of the future!

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton The problem with a CR type approach is the limited number of crtieria that can be evaluated objectively with music gear. Get 10 different guitarists in a room, and they'll disagree vehemently on which amp/modeler/whatever is best. Where CR shines is sheer volume -- they can print repair records on 188,000 washing machines, and that's damn useful info. But ultimately, a lot of what CR is about is shootouts: This TV has a better picture, this TV has better speakers, this one broke down when we plugged it in, etc.

 

Point well taken. With all the debates about the lack of CR-type independence in audio reviews, it may be that this is really Darwin at work.

 

I do think that the audio community has a funny urge to agree on what's good and what's bad. People want to know that this is the thing to buy, and this is the thing to avoid (for whatever reasons). You know, the Distressor phenomenon. But as you suggest, for the most part this will not come out in a CR type review.

 

To the extent that the audio reviewer is a surrogate for subjective user experience, the Pro Review takes that from metaphor to reality.

 

-plb

[mandoman]

I've been looking for a digital recorder to replace my aging minidisc. My criteria are:

1) Linear PCM 24bit recording - 96khz would be nice, but mostly just need 44.1

2) Decent XLR Mic Pres w/Phantom Power

3) Compact Flash Recording - Want solid state, no moving parts to breakdown, ie, not HDD based.

4) Either onboard stereo condenser mic OR minijack mic input for 'down and dirty recording' when I don't want to drag around
cables/mics.

5) Fast transfers to computer either via USB2, Firewire or earthnet. NO proprietary software or DRM b.s. with transfers.

6) Compact size and Rugged quality

7) Field Replaceable but rechargeable batteries AND ability to record plugged in.

Bonus nice Features would be:
a) Digital Input
b) Analog On-board limiter

There is no single unit on the market that meets my entire criteria list. The units I've looked at are:

Sony PCM-D1: No XLR in

Tascam HD-P2 - Current Frontrunner, would be nice if it where smaller and included either an onboard mic or minijack mic in.

Marantz Units - PMD660 has almost perfect feature set and size, but has poor audio quality and supossably is very noisy. I hope they come out with a PMD661 with much improved specs.

M-Audio - Cheap TRS jacks, low phantom power, cheap overall quality, no field serviceable batteries.

Edirol R1 and R9 - No xlr ins, includes totally useless effects

Sony HD Minidisc - Not solid state, no XLR ins, proprietary software transfers

Fostex FR-2- Heard good things - this is along the lines of the Tascam unit, but I'd go Tascam over this I think

I'd say the choices are Large Units geared towards the video crowd and small units geared towards consumers. What I want to see is something in between for the prosumer market. Alas, not quite there. I think if I had to chose today, I'd go for the Tascam HD-P2...

Mandoman

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Originally posted by mandoman Sony PCM-D1: No XLR in

 

 

something like that and your're done

 

http://www.beachtek.com/dxa10.html

 

.

[techristian]

There is only a small market for that kind of product. The price is too high. I say $899 TOPS !!

I already have a MINIDISK recorder. I like the preamp better.


Dan

http://teachmedrums.com

[mandoman]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide something like that and your're done http://www.beachtek.com/dxa10.html .

 

 

I've thought about something like that. I actually looked at this too: http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php

 

It has the advantage of better a/d. Then just buy a unit with digital audio in, but that's not on all of them. The beachtek or core sound also have better mic pres I'm sure than any of the other devices I've listed.

 

But the point is I want an all in one unit, not a two piece solution.

 

Mandoman

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Originally posted by mandoman But the point is I want an all in one unit, not a two piece solution.

 

 

This are devices who have that:

 

NAGRA ARES-BB+

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/doc_en/Ares_BBplus_download.pdf

 

Nagra V

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/doc_en/NAGRA_V.pdf

 

Nagra home:

http://www.nagraaudio.com/index.php

 

.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide something like that and your're done http://www.beachtek.com/dxa10.html .

 

I think the general quality of the PCM-D1 is pretty good, so if I were going to use external mics, it would only be because I wanted to use something even better. To hook up something like the Beachtek might undermine that.

 

Beachtek does alot of audio for video stuff, add-ons to camcorders and the like. If I were going to bypass the PCM-D1's built-in mics it would only be because I wanted to use something even better. In that circumstance, the beachtek would likely be the weak link in the chain.

 

what I think I would do is just use a basic straight-line cable adapter - miniplug to female XLRs, and then plug a line level signal into that (from the line level output of a mic preamp, or soundfield system). otherwise, I'd just use it as is.

 

Thanks though!

 

-plb

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide This are devices who have that: NAGRA ARES-BB+ http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/doc_en/Ares_BBplus_download.pdf Nagra V http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/doc_en/NAGRA_V.pdf Nagra home: http://www.nagraaudio.com/index.php .

 

Nagra's great for some applications, but for me, I think I'll either get the PCM-D1 if i decide on an all-in-one (and I'm REALLY close to getting it), or I'll just get the new Tascam thing (HD-P2 ? ) that replaces that familiar old workhorse, the DA-P1.

 

-plb

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Brittanylips Nagra's great for some applications, but for me, I think I'll either get the PCM-D1 if i decide on an all-in-one (and I'm REALLY close to getting it), or I'll just get the new Tascam thing (HD-P2 ? ) that replaces that familiar old workhorse, the DA-P1. -plb

 

 

We have six DAP1s sitting in the equipment locker at my workplace. Those things really did us right for years, but it would be so much better to record directly to a memory stick.

 

Terry D.

[mandoman]

Originally posted by Brittanylips Nagra's great for some applications, but for me, I think I'll either get the PCM-D1 if i decide on an all-in-one (and I'm REALLY close to getting it), or I'll just get the new Tascam thing (HD-P2 ? ) that replaces that familiar old workhorse, the DA-P1. -plb

 

 

Please let us what you get Brittanylips, I'd be very interested to know. I keep thinking the sony unit would be sweet, but it's expensive and not quite compact enough. The HD-P2 is definately not as compact as I'd like but it's got a great set of I/O. Tough choice. Find a dealer, hold em both in your hands to get a feel for 'em, and pick the one you like the best...

[Brittanylips]

Craig:

Don't know if you're still reading this, but if so, I have a question about the PCM-D1 that perhaps you might be able to answer.

Is its line level output active while recording?

If this were the case, you could use the thing not only for field recording, but also as an extra stereo mic in the studio:

Just push play/record, run a cable from its line out to a line-level input of your recording system, and voila, you have an extra stereo mic available for all occassions (not just field recording). All the more reason to buy it...

Thanks,

blp