The song fadeout... please share your lore & opinions...

[Lee Flier]

Fadeouts are great if done well and used in the right context, they suck if they're used out of laziness or otherwise done poorly.

... pretty much like any other technique used in songwriting or recording.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Just to toss in a twist... Every song on digital goes from digital black up to some level, and eventually back down to black. They can either do it extremely quickly, or very slowly, or somewhere in between the two extremes... but they all fade out - even if it's just the decay of the last note; even if the last note is cut off short and hard, there's a decay, a release. So technically, evey recorded song fades in and out... some just do it really fast.

I know that is different than the compositional discussions about codas, and the production decision discussion regarding fades...

As far as the arrangement issues, which I consider relevant to both composition and recording / production... to me, it's less about the fade out than what happens in the time between where we come up from nothing and the point where we drop down to it again - IOW, the entire song. As I said earlier, a fade out is nothing more than a musical tool or arrangement device, and like any other tool at our disposal, there are times when I think using it is musically appropriate, and times when I think it isn't. How we're going to end the song on a recording is an important issue to me as a producer / engineer, but that's only one of thousands of decisions we're going to be making along the way... and just because some people have misused fade out endings on some recordings, or they're in or out of fashon at the moment doesn't concern me... it's "what does the song call for? What will best serve the song and the emotion or "feel" we're trying to convey?" If that means a fade out, then that's what I'm in favor of... all options on the table, let's use what we feel works best for the song.

A musical example for your consideration:

Hey Jude vs I Want You (She's So Heavy). Both have extended codas. Neither has a traditional, resolved ending; a last, quick staccato note or a fermata over the last note and a cutoff. One fades out, and one uses the "cut the tape right... there!" approach; about as drastic, unexpected and "hard" of a cut off as you can get I suppose. So, here's my questions:

1. Is one ending "better" than the other? Or would an even more traditional ending like the one at the end of "She Loves You" make more sense to you? Which of the three supports the song best? Which do you prefer, and why?

2. Imagine we just swapped the ending method of Hey Jude and I Want You (SSH)... IOW, we did a unexpected cutoff in mid-coda on Hey Jude and faded out IWY (SSH)... would that have worked "better" for you on either song? If so, why? Would it have really been better - or just "different"? If not better, why do you think the existing version was the better choice?

3. Do any of those endings on those three Beatles songs work "better" in support of the rest of the song and arrangement than the others? If so, which one, and why?

4. How do each of those three endings make you "feel"? And if you can remember back that far, how did each make you feel the first time you ever heard them?

[cooterbrown]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe 1. Is one ending "better" than the other? Or would an even more traditional ending like the one at the end of "She Loves You" make more sense to you? Which of the three supports the song best? Which do you prefer, and why?

 

 

Both work great...in the case of "Hey Jude", a final note would seem to be a bit ... pretentious-sounding.

"Yeah we gave you the fake ending, then this great chorus-disguised-as-a-coda-that-Paul-alluded-to-in-the-verses"...it would sound all too planned out, rather than the happy jam it actually was.

 

"I Want You" builds up a lot of tension with the slightly slower pace of the final go-around (it sounds like Ringo came in slow, but in reality, I think the other guys were too fast) and adds a growing wave of white noise behind the music.

 

Just as the white noise overtakes the music, there is a shocking silence...perhaps the "heaviness" of the woman Lennon "wants" (obviously Yoko) is so powerful, it totally consumes and swallows him.

 

 

2. Imagine we just swapped the ending method of Hey Jude and I Want You (SSH)... IOW, we did a unexpected cutoff in mid-coda on Hey Jude and faded out IWY (SSH)... would that have worked "better" for you on either song? If so, why? Would it have really been better - or just "different"? If not better, why do you think the existing version was the better choice?

 

 

I think that would cheapen both songs... the coda of "Hey Jude" is a cathartic release from the lamenting and "cheer-up, young chap" sentiment of the verses. To end it without the coda would be like a wet dream with no release.

 

A fade on "I Want You" would mean the white noise would continue to overtake the music, like a tv station that had gone off-the-air, and in that context would probably be viewed as another one of John's pretentious conceits, like "Revolution #9" or "Glass Onion".

 

 

3. Do any of those endings on those three Beatles songs work "better" in support of the rest of the song and arrangement than the others? If so, which one, and why?

 

 

"She Loves You" is fecking pop perfection...that whole track is so tight, it could explode in your face.

 

Its ending works best, IMO, simply because there is no other way that song could end.

 

The 6th harmony that George suggested was totally outrageous for 1963 rock n roll.

 

 

4. How do each of those three endings make you "feel"? And if you can remember back that far, how did each make you feel the first time you ever heard them?

 

 

I was born in 1967...I do remember hearing the radio saying something about "Beatles" and "breakup".

 

Of course, in the early 70s, the Beatles as solo artists got more spins than their work together, it seemed.

 

But as a child, I did love them once I actually was immersed in their music.

 

One of my neighbors had the "red" and "blue" compilations playing quite often on the porch, during the summer.

 

I asked for both of those for my birthday, and I moved along from album to album, from there.

 

So...to answer the question:

 

The ending of "She Loves You" made me feel elated.

 

The ending of "Hey Jude" gave me warm fuzzies.

 

The ending of "I Want You" shocked me.

[franknputer]

Fade-outs suck! They're not Rock & Roll!! Ending a song by getting weaker & weaker...bleah!

Now, fade-UPS are cool! Push that last chorus HIGHER & HIGHER & HIGHER until the stereo starts smokin' and my f8cking speakers blow into little confetti shards all over the room!!

Now THAT'S an ending. :thu:

[the stranger]

Originally posted by Ani You were on a roll until you mentioned Afternoon Delight... UGHHHHHHH!!!! I liked all of the others mentioned, but Afternoon Delight was a really, really SAD excuse for a song relative to lovemaking. Hearing it NEVER left me in the mood, and actually, it would have KILLED a mood had one been going.

-~

[the stranger]

Originally posted by blue2blue I can tell Stranger's trying to get into the Billy Joel thing with me but I ain't gonna go there...

You could tell I was amused?

No such thing as bad music, Stranger. It's all good.

I agree 100%. Except for new country. And most new mainstream music. And most r&b. And that smooth jazz algorythm. And anything recorded digitally. And anything recorded after 1980. It mostly all sucks. Suck is the new good.

It's all good, Stranger.

It's all good, it's all bad. I'm sure after this little diatribe about the relativistic aspects of taste, you're gonna tell me some deterministic voodoo denouncing the idea of free will, right?

Why don't you just say something about my Mom? -~

[the stranger]

Originally posted by franknputer Fade-outs suck! They're not Rock & Roll!! Ending a song by getting weaker & weaker...bleah! Now, fade-UPS are cool! Push that last chorus HIGHER & HIGHER & HIGHER until the stereo starts smokin' and my f8cking speakers blow into little confetti shards all over the room!! Now THAT'S an ending. :thu:

So you were at that Motorhead show, too? -~

[rasputin1963]

Originally posted by the stranger Suck is the new good.

 

 

 

You know, perhaps you are being hyperbolic or facetious... but there is something true to what you say: The Digital Domain has truly re-scripted not only how music is made and how it sounds--- but the very essence of what music IS.

 

I envy the Mobys and William Orbits of this world who have taken to the all-digital, all-synthesized domain like a fish to water...

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by franknputer Fade-outs suck! They're not Rock & Roll!! Ending a song by getting weaker & weaker...bleah! Now, fade-UPS are cool! Push that last chorus HIGHER & HIGHER & HIGHER until the stereo starts smokin' and my f8cking speakers blow into little confetti shards all over the room!! Now THAT'S an ending. :thu:

But how can you do that when the CD's already mastered as loud as it can go?

[the stranger]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli But how can you do that when the CD's already mastered as loud as it can go?

That's when you hear the sound of pure digital clipping. It sounds all glitchy and is uh...probably how you get the confetti effect. -~

Some disc players are reported to eject the disc when this point hits.

If you select the shred ambience setting on your reciever, you can make out voices in the glitches.

[cooterbrown]

Geez, yooz guys are lazy... am I the only one who's gonna take up Phil's great question?

Oh, and... -bump-

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by cooterbrown Geez, yooz guys are lazy... am I the only one who's gonna take up Phil's great question? And if I may say so, you posted exactly the type of response I was seeking - thanks! Anyone else? Oh, and... -bump- And thanks for the bump.

[Ani]

Originally posted by cooterbrown Geez, yooz guys are lazy... am I the only one who's gonna take up Phil's great question? Oh, and... -bump-

Not lazy, just unable to respond to the questions since I've never really got in to listening to the Beatles; I am unfamiliar with the song endings other than Hey Jude. I can recall a never-ending Na, na na na na na na, na na na na Hey Jude.....

Maybe I am biased against that song for personal reasons, but it went on forever the first time I heard it and I have never been able to stomach the tune since. It brings back horrid memories of a teen scene when I was at a very impressionable age.

In short, my sister and I were at a skating rink and a guy that she had been flirting with asked her to join him in the couple skate with one catch...... his friend wanted to skate with little sister too. I was 13 and not really at an age where I had taken an interest in being a part of a couple. My sister pointed the guy out to me and he was god awful UGLY... as in, the nth degree. I told her flat out, NO! After she begged and pleaded with me to dance with the guy so that she could dance with the guy she had been flirting with, I finally said yes but told her she owed me big time.

Needless to say, the song played for the couple skate was Hey Jude; the longest song on the planet at that time. It was bad enough skating at an arms length with this ugly guy, but then he started singing the damn song to me as if I were going to be his girlfriend. BLEh...... His hair looked like he had been swimming in an oil slick and his face oozed with an advanced case of acne. He tried to talk to me after the skate was over and I RAN to the bathroom and hid. My sister got a date with, and ended up marrying the other guy.

Sorry, but the Beatles bombed out for me.

[cooterbrown]

Originally posted by Ani Not lazy, just unable to respond to the questions since I've never really got in to listening to the Beatles; I am unfamiliar with the song endings other than Hey Jude. I can recall a never-ending Na, na na na na na na, na na na na Hey Jude..... *snip a bunch of hooey*

You say you don't like the Beatles, and that you never really listened to them...yet you take every opportunity, it seems, to trash them.

Like your "contribution" to the thread that basically stated that the Beatles had no talent, and were simply a product of "advancing technologies".

If a disagreeable moment that you suffered with some lunkhead (you know you could have always pushed away and said "no thanks" or "I gotta go potty") is your single informing opinion on one of the greatest songs by one of the greatest bands of all time, then one really has to wonder if you are either:

1. an idiot, or

2. a Beatle-hatin' troll.

Just sayin' is all.

[Ani]

To say that I've never really got in to listening to the Beatles is NOT saying that I've never been forced to listen to materials that made my skin crawl. I have NEVER really liked the Beatles. From the bubblegum chewing pop songs like She Loves Me YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.... to the pointless and loosely thrown together lyrics of Yellow Submarine.

I'm not a troll, although I do have an opinion that does not mesh with yours. I know many of the Beatles songs, just not well enough to listen to the ending of the songs to see whether or not they use a coda or a fade; I usually change the channel within the first three beats of a Beatles tune.

There are only 3 Beatles tunes out there that I can actually say I like; Something, Elanor Rigby, and A Day in the Life. The lyrics in A Day in the Life are all over the place, but the song as a whole was interesting.

Your comments are unwarranted... cooterbrown

I grew up listening to and hating every minute of the Beatles. This was long before Hey Jude was ever written.

[Ani]

is your single informing opinion on one of the greatest songs by one of the greatest bands of all time, then one really has to wonder if you are either:

and P.S.

Hey Jude in NOT one of the greatest songs ever written... not in my book. Lunkhead aside, Hey Jude has the same repetitious effect in it's ending as the Chicago tunes had. The repetition gets OLD after the first few repeats; one doesn't need to drag a song out for 7 minutes using the same phrase over and over again for 3 to 4 of those minutes.

The Long Form Much has been made of the unusual length of this song (7:07), particularly for a single, but it's the means by which this length is sustained (not the length per se) that's of interest. ......... http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/hj.shtml The jam-like half of the song presents no less than nineteen repetitions of the same phrase, slowly fading out to eventual silence in the middle of the final repeat. The main "lyrics" are scat sung to the syllable "na-na" and start right on the downbeat of the phrase. Superimposed against that background we get half-sung/half-screamed interjectory phrases from Paul.

The guy is praising the song, but I'm sorry.... I still can't get into it... NINETEEN repetitions???? And I thought Chicago was bad...

[cooterbrown]

Originally posted by Ani I'm not a troll I grew up listening to and hating every minute of the Beatles.

So you're the first of the two choices I offered, then?
... fair enough, and mighty big of you to admit that!

[Ani]

Originally posted by cooterbrown So you're the first of the two choices I offered, then? ... fair enough, and mighty big of you to admit that!

No comment, but I if it makes you feel like more of a man to degrade others for not "THINKING" exactly as you do, then so be it. I don't need to follow the groove of things to be satisfied in life; it's called individuality. You might try thinking for yourself sometime when you realize that not everyone has the same taste.

[cooterbrown]

Originally posted by Ani No comment, but I if it makes you feel like more of a man to degrade others for not "THINKING" exactly as you do, then so be it. I don't need to follow the groove of things to be satisfied in life; it's called individuality. You might try thinking for yourself sometime when you realize that not everyone has the same taste.

Well, you are also a troll, whether you'd admit it, or not.

Phil's question was obviously aimed people who actually like the Beatles.

Shame that you were unable to grasp that fact.

Now, I realize that such a concept to you seems on par with clubbing baby Harp seals or comitting hari-kari, but the are more than a few of us out there.

By offering your pointless "Boo-hoo...I went skating with my sister and had to be around this smelly ogre and that's why I wish I was John Lennon's assassin" post, you hijacked the intention of Phil's subthread...turning into your personal soapbox of why, in your opinion, the Beatles suck inordinant amounts of wildebeast ass.

So GFY, Ani.

[Ani]

Originally posted by cooterbrown Well, you are also a troll, whether you'd admit it, or not. Phil's question was obviously aimed people who actually like the Beatles. Shame that you were unable to grasp that fact. Now, I realize that such a concept to you seems on par with clubbing baby Harp seals or comitting hari-kari , but the are more than a few of us out there. By offering your pointless "Boo-hoo...I went skating with my sister and had to be around this smelly ogre and that's why I wish I was John Lennon's assassin" post, you hijacked the intention of Phil's subthread...turning into your personal soapbox of why, in your opinion, the Beatles suck inordinant amounts of wildebeast ass. So GFY, Ani.

Actually, the thread was about fade-outs and song endings; not the Beatles. My comments DID surround the never ending repetition of a song....

[cooterbrown]

Originally posted by Ani Actually, the thread was about fade-outs and song endings; not the Beatles. My comments DID surround the never ending repetition of a song....

 

 

Sub-thread, Ani...sub-thread.

 

Read and comprehend, rather than skim-for-buzzkill-words-and- react.

[Ani]

I was not responding to the SUB-thread, but rather, the topic that was posted. I guess that sort of thing is not allowed in your book.

[EccentRick]

I like a good fadeout and I also like a good coda or outro. I definitely don't see a fadeout as being a "cop out" or "weak" in any sense whatsoever. YMMV, of course.

Many times, some of the best, hook-y licks (vocal or instrumental) are intentionally placed at the very tail end of a fadeout. That can often make me want to immediately hit the rewind button and listen again from beginning to end. Sometimes over and over and over and...

The only kind of fadeout that can bug me is one that's way too fast. An abrupt coda doesn't bother me at all, as long as it "works" for the arrangement.

With a fade, an artist/writer can choose the last phrase (again vocal or instrumental) or even the last word that is audible to purposely emphasize a lyrical point, reinforce the title of the song, (hopefully) leave the listener with a specific psychological impression or in a given mood, "set up" the next upcoming cut, etc etc etc. And, as someone else referred to in the thread, a long, dreamlike, gradual fade into the "infinite" can sometimes practically leave the listener in a meditative state. Lots of possibilities for creativity, I feel...

I just LOVE a great ending, period! Whether it's a great coda or a great fadeout makes zero difference to me. If the song is strong, the arrangement is strong and the performance is there, IMHO either form of ending can work and work well. But, I already said that, right? Time to put an abrupt coda on this rambling missive!


Rick

[songrytr]

"A Day in the Life"

Fade out?

[shniggens]

Someone should have slammed the freakin piano lid down on Paul's fingers after the third "nananana" on "Hey Jude". Just sayin'. That ending just ruins the whole song for me.