The Delusion of Being Good

[Blackwatch]

I hope I can express this properly....

 

Lately as I listen to the music that people post on this site and other sites on the web I'm baffled by what I hear. What can these people possibly be thinking? How do they think that their music is good compared to the musical standards that we've become accustomed to? And how deluded do you have to be to post this.

And what really scares me is: if these people are this deluded what's to say that I'm not also. I mean we all have self images of what we are as artists and musicians. And I've had enough impartial feedback to have some kind of idea of where I stand, But if this many people are this far off who's to say that we aren't also?I know it's all subjective but still.....

 

So I'm wondering, What makes you think that you are good and what do you have to offer?

[panoramic]

what is good is subjective to every person. You are wasting your time trying to evaluate a universal concept of "Good Music". You'd be better off searching for the holy grail.

[HCarlH]

I've found that the more gear somebody has (and the more tracks they've used), the worse their music is. Too many people waste time looking for equipment instead of working on songwriting and being a better musician.

 

I hear the best stuff when somebody has used a four track tape machine.

[THBv2.0]

Good question, BW. I've wondered the same thing from time to time. Some of the music I've heard here is just outstanding, totally pro level work (TK IV II I, BlueStrat) and some is from bands that I think should just stay in the garage. There are lots of working bar bands represented here and some really good players who post, but to answer your question I'll say this:

 

I put myself fairly close to the top of the list here because my songwriting is solid, the music is simple and the players have excellent/very good chops. I've gotten some radio and t.v. exposure with excellent feedback and I've been self-employed full-time as a musician/entertainer for the better part of 18 years. I've recorded three full-length original CDs, have been signed to an indie label and am in the studio working on #s 4 and 5.

 

With that being said, of course, not everyone agrees with me.

 

 

[Silent Heart]

 

I hope I can express this properly.... Lately as I listen to the music that people post on this site and other sites on the web I'm baffled by what I hear. What can these people possibly be thinking? How do they think that their music is good compared to the musical standards that we've become accustomed to? And how deluded do you have to be to post this. And what really scares me is: if these people are this deluded what's to say that I'm not also. I mean we all have self images of what we are as artists and musicians. And I've had enough impartial feedback to have some kind of idea of where I stand, But if this many people are this far off who's to say that we aren't also?I know it's all subjective but still..... So I'm wondering, What makes you think that you are good and what do you have to offer?

 

 

Obviously there are varying levels of success, but we "lifers" who hang around here, soundclick, reverbnation, etc. are never going to really make it. At the same time, we don't want to be ripped apart, we just want to have fun making music and sharing it with (a very small portion of) the world.

 

But to give my answer to your question: you almost certainly are in fact deluding yourself if you don't receive any impartial feedback. But you say you have that, so if you "keep your feet on the ground and head in the clouds" you're probably OK.

[Matximus]

 

I hope I can express this properly.... So I'm wondering, What makes you think that you are good and what do you have to offer?

 

 

What makes one good? TWO words, baby: Flute Solo. You know what I'm talking about.....

[AwayEam]

HEY BROS

 

I know I'm not very good, but I'm having fun and continually improving. That's all that matters to me. That, and keeping the audience entertained. You don't have to be the world's greatest musician to do that

 

I think the real problem is guys who are so convinced they are good that they stop working at it - and stop improving. I bet everyone here knows at least a few people like that.

[BlueStrat]

I dunno. I think there's something to this.

 

When I was a kid, I never thought I'd ever be good enough to make a record. I've been plagued by self doubt my entire life, and I think that's what makes me work harder to be better. I have never made a record I'm happy with, never played a solo I couldn't have done better, and never written a song I think is great. It's what keeps me moving forward.

 

But I see a lot of younger guys here who are products of my generation-kids who have been told their entire lives that everything they do is worthy of praise. We did it with our own kids, especially the oldest one. We were told back in the 80s that if we didn't praise our kids continually and use positive reinforcement, we'd somehow damage them psychologically. We did our best to keep from allowing our kids to experience failure, and if they did fail, to insulate them from the bad feelings it brings. What we ended up doing, especially in my first born's case, is deprive him of the maturation process of dealing with defeat and growing and learning from it. Now, we have a 24 year old kid who is in many ways selfish, self centered, and convinced that he can do anything, and yet remains comfortable in his lack of achievement. If he's late for work, so what? If they don't like his work, they're idiots. And if they don't give him a 2 dollar an our raise after 6 months, it's because they're just taking advantage of him. He thinks he should have a 20k car and own a house by now, but doesn't because they don't pay him enough. Etc, etc etc. His sense of entitlement is incredible.

 

When a kid gets praised for everything, gets an award for everything, is allowed to regard adults as peers, thinks he's entitled to feel good about everything, has parents who defend his poor behavior at school, and has everything he creates displayed proudly by beaming parents, what else can we expect?

 

Some people are convinced that any combination of riffs and inane words can be cobbled together to make a song, and every idea they have needs to be recorded and shared. And if other people don't like it , it isn't because it's poorly written, poorly produced and poorly performed. No, it's because the public are mindless sheep happy to be spoonfed corporate crap and don't recognize true genius when they see it. It's become such an excuse for producing crap that it's become cliche.

 

Too many kids in this generation are delusional about their abilities and their importance. But it is my generation who made them that way. It says more about us than it does about them. I've had to apologize to my son and try to undo some of the damage by teaching him a work ethic that I was raised with, and that the world doesn't revolve around him, and is not in awe of his uniqueness. It's hard, but we're making progress.

[AwayEam]

Some of the music I've heard here is just outstanding, totally pro level work (TK IV II I, BlueStrat)...

 

HEY MANG

 

I agree, TK-421 (Am I going mental, or is that a really obscure Star Wars reference?) and The Pat Coast Band are crazy good.

 

In your case, I think you should link to your MySpace in your sig, or put a Flash player on your site. Downloading MP3s/M3Us just to check out a band is a bit of a pain in the ass. I mean, I listened to some of your songs, and it's worth the trouble, but most people just won't bother.

 

Also, the link to your MySpace on your site appears to be wrong (an extra "the" in the URL).

 

EDIT: I really like "Road To You." The guitar at the end sounds like Knopfler if he played with a pick.

[AwayEam]

Too many kids in this generation are delusional about their abilities and their importance. But it is my generation who made them that way.

 

HEY BRO

 

If your generation made us this way, we're happily perpetuating it.

 

I don't think I've ever gotten a single piece of critical feedback on a show I played or a song I recorded from any of my peers. It's a bit mind-blowing now that I think about it.

 

I'm sure plenty of disparaging things are said behind my back, but never to my face. It explains why these threads keep popping up in "Backstage With The Bros" from guys too scared to fire terrible band members.

 

By the way, I was wincing when I read the part about your son. You don't pull no punches, do you?

[Surrealistic]

So I'm wondering, What makes you think that you are good and what do you have to offer?

I don't think I'm good - but who am I to argue with my fans?

 

On a more serious note, I think all you can really do is evaluate your performances and/or recordings based on how they're recieved by a) the audience (taking care to put to one side any appreciation by family and friends), b) other musicians and c) other people in the biz (radio presenters, venue owners, music critics etc). On that basis I'm pretty sure I'm not deluded in believing I have something to offer.

[Surrealistic]

... I've been plagued by self doubt my entire life, and I think that's what makes me work harder to be better ...

I think you have a good point about some of the youngsters out there but I'm also interested in the above quote.

 

In my experience most musicians - once they get out of the teenage "I'm-God's-gift-to-the-world" stage - have serious self doubt. Some days I'll be playing my guitar or trying to write something and it just seems like garbage to me and I can easily convince myself I have no talent whatsoever -(cue someone listening to my stuff and saying "actually yeah, that's true - you don't" ) - but then there are other days, the good days, when I know I've written or played something worthwhile. Those days are why we keep doing it aren't they?

[Blackwatch]

Wow...some great answers.

 

First off- Taylor.....how the hell you doing? You're the best in my book.

And I have to say when I go back and add up what I've acheived, every time I really applied myself, I've done OK. My own worst enemy Is me....

BTW...How did that guitar turn out?

[Blackwatch]

Panoramic- It's not so much as defining good...it's more about deluding ones self about their ablilities and their place in the musical world. But I agree, this crap can drive you crazy......

[Kramerguy]

I think you have a good point about some of the youngsters out there but I'm also interested in the above quote. In my experience most musicians - once they get out of the teenage "I'm-God's-gift-to-the-world" stage - have serious self doubt. Some days I'll be playing my guitar or trying to write something and it just seems like garbage to me and I can easily convince myself I have no talent whatsoever - (cue someone listening to my stuff and saying "actually yeah, that's true - you don't" ) - but then there are other days, the good days, when I know I've written or played something worthwhile. Those days are why we keep doing it aren't they?

 

+1000

 

I haven't been happy with anything I ever played or recorded since I was 18. Every year I find myself just pushing harder to improve. I'm even thinking of going to myspace and deleting my demos now.. lol ... crappy home recorded junk.

[Blackwatch]

Pat...Leave it to you to sum it up. I really admire your ability to get to the core of things. (Not to mention your abilites on the guitar) And I really agree that our self doubt is a tremendous motivator. So does that mean that we have to be just a little messed up to thrive?

[Blackwatch]

Kramer...I know the feeling well. I sat down in front of the mirror recently and sang and played for about an hour and couldn't believe the weird faces I was making. Thinking that I was making them as did all those gigs makes me want to hide. It's been one of the hardest things I've had to learn in playing music...to smile all the time. If I don't it looks like I'm scowling.....

[Blackwatch]

 

What makes one good? TWO words, baby: Flute Solo. You know what I'm talking about.....

 

 

Damn Straight!!!!

[wwwjd]

Wow, this is a GREAT topic and it can cover MANY different perspectives like:

- By what measure or standard = good?

- as mentioned, Generational upbringing

- current HIT trends

- purpose of production: fun or professional

 

I mean, I don't think EVERYONE really wants to be number one on the charts - even though I suspect everyone TRULY DOES want that deep in their hidden ID - but if not charting, to what degree is one's goal? Does one even HAVE a goal? Without a goal, you have no measure if you are getting there or any good.

 

I blame KARAOKE...

 

a system that makes anyone think they can feel or act like a star. It also lowers the values of the 1% of people who are very talented and should be stars.... it makes it so about 40% of everyone can be a star. There is not enough room, or enough listeners for that many stars.

 

Some other angles to note are "technology enabling" - stuff that puts professional tools into the hands of the untalented, but enough fixes built to make them feel like they are. Is that really helping? Well, it helps the untalented FEEL talented. Is that good? No. It is EXACTLY like the positive enabling mentioned above with that guy and his son. Exactly. False, unrealistic expectations etc etc etc

 

On the flipside.... what about the guy that has no talent, yet has some tools and ENJOYS what he is doing? Even if it is total dreck? Nothing wrong with that either. Who knows, maybe SOMEONE is interested in it. I've seen some pretty bad art go for silly money before. Or maybe he simply enjoys dumping large cans of paint on the canvas. I guess that would be perceived as being good at least to him.

 

I, too, have heard some pretty iffy stuff around the net. Some of it SO BAD, I really think the person is hurting themself thinking it is ANYTHING at all.

 

I dunno. If I bought a chainsaw with the intent of making tree trunk sculptures, and all I EVER ended up with was a plethera of nothing and piles of saw dust, I think I would sell it and try a different hobby. People spend too much of their life focusing on something they can't do well, rather than trying to find something they can do well.

 

Back to the GOAL:

If they are doing it to TRY to ever be professional, then use professional standards to measure up to. If it doesn't, might be time to sell that chainsaw.

 

If it is JUST for fun, well then, anything goes, and there is no measure except the measure of your own personal fun. But I won't listen to your stuff and tell you it is good, because I can't stand listening to crap [if that is what it is]

[AwayEam]

Some days I'll be playing my guitar or trying to write something and it just seems like garbage to me and I can easily convince myself I have no talent whatsoever - (cue someone listening to my stuff and saying "actually yeah, that's true - you don't" ) - but then there are other days, the good days, when I know I've written or played something worthwhile. Those days are why we keep doing it aren't they?

 

HEY BRO

 

That sounds about right

[zombiecpm]

I try to write music I like. If I like it, someone else will too. Apparently, you don't need to be good to make a living with music. For example, here in Kansas City, the annual "Rock Fest" is about to happen. {censored}ty band after {censored}ty band after {censored}ty band. Then, the headliner is Korn! yay Roughly 50,000 idiots are gonna have a blast and encourage these bands to keep {censored}ting out the hits. I'd say if your riffs earn you free drugs and some tail after the show, you might think you were pretty good. I have to agree with the earlier post from BlueStrat. If you reward mediocrity, it will never go away.

Until people turn off the radio and stop buying garbage like Nickleback and Seether, anyone who can play a power chord will think they are good.

[Khemical]

If you're in a band that can at least do 60+ tix per show, regardless of style/genre or what is perceived as "Good music" is irrelevant IMHO. If you're making a living as a band, good for you. It doesn't matter if others consider you good or not. What is the criteria for being considered good? 128th notes at 400BPM? or straight 8th notes at 100BPM or less, but has a good groove(wether it's cliche sounding or not) and gets the crowd into it?

 

I don't care for most mainstream bands, but their success can not be denied. The old argument of "well, xyz label put a bunch of money into them" so what! they are doing what they enjoy and the label thought they had something worth investing in, They may not be that great technically but they know how to entertain and that's the bottomline for investing in any band.

 

Most younger bands I see, the only problem I have is the stage presence needs polishing(or is non-existent). I can't count the many times, I've watched a battle of the bands show and heard good bands(technically) bitching because they lost to a "{censored}ty" band(that had their stage show down, and knew how to work the crowd and get them into it.)

 

for example is pulling 50,000+ {censored}ty? I don't think so, that's great marketing and bands busting their ass to sell tix, pure and simple. Korn obviously is responsible for the majority of the draw, but I bet every "{censored}ty" band their busted their rumps to play there. If they didn't do good on tix, they didn't belong there however.

 

Gear doesn't make the band, but if you're solid and have decent gear. It really makes for a good live & studio sound.(unless the engineer blows ass )

 

You can tell the difference between a well rehearsed band with a solid stage show and a band that has their music solid, but is unmoving live.

 

Rock n' Roll is alive and well IMHO, you just gotta find it. There's no right or wrong in music. One mans crap band is anothers favorite band.

 

anyway that's my .2 cents

 

Keep rocking!

 

P.S a good rock song i'd recommend "Hey Jealousy" by the Gin Blossoms

[AwayEam]

 

What is the criteria for being considered good? 128th notes at 400BPM?

 

 

HEY BRO

 

I would consider this good technically. But a quick mathematical analysis will show that it would lack soul:

 

128th notes at 400 BPM ~= 4ms per note

 

The open, low E string of a guitar takes approx. 12 ms to finish a cycle (~82 Hz). The low E on a bass takes 24ms (~41 Hz).

 

I'm afraid that at that speed, it's physically impossible to define the pitches.

 

The crowd will be unable to understand how much of your heart you're putting into the song.

[Khemical]

LOL it's an obvious exaggeration

 

Good analysis however, I like you already!

[tim_7string]

I don't think I'm good - but who am I to argue with my fans? On a more serious note, I think all you can really do is evaluate your performances and/or recordings based on how they're recieved by a) the audience (taking care to put to one side any appreciation by family and friends) , b) other musicians and c) other people in the biz (radio presenters, venue owners, music critics etc). On that basis I'm pretty sure I'm not deluded in believing I have something to offer.

 

I personally don't think my stuff is fantastic, but I do think that if I would have tried harder (and moved to a music mecca at the right time, ala Seattle in 1989-1990 before grunge exploded), I might have had a chance at being a recording artist "if [i got] in with the right bunch of fellows" (BTO reference). I believe that some of my songs are pretty good (not just the ones on my myspace page). I never did push it as hard as I should have, though, so I'll never know. I just enjoyed recording for the sake of recording when I did those songs years ago. Nice to hear what is in your head come out in a form that you can share with others.

 

My peak of noteriety was basically in 2001, when I was interviewed on the radio for 90 minutes and a few of my songs were played on the air. It was in the evening hours and on AM radio, so it was broadcast to the entire state of North Dakota that night. Of course, not everyone in the state listens to that station, so... It was nice to hear from people calling in (off-air on commercial breaks) that they really liked my stuff.

 

However, like many people, I am my own worst critic and have strongly considered hanging it up permanently ("retiring") over the past few years.

 

BlueStrat's post was insightful as always. I think I suffered from a bit of that doting myself even though I am kind of an inbetween generation from him and his kids. Being told you are great when you're young kind of warps your perception about reality. Thankfully, by the time I hit my teens, I already realized I was just above-average with some things and pretty mediocre at many others. Humbling, but sobering.