Can you overmod?

[FUBTAG]

The treble bleed thread has me thinking....

 

I would love to do a strat set up with all the mods possible, without changing the appearance (such as no switches), such as the treble bleed, blender pot, circuit board etc... I have to research all the different mods done, but is there a point were too many mods become counter-productive? If so, how many guys have gotten to that point? What did you attempt to do?

[ashtray]

Just realize that when you do a single mod, you change the guitar in some way. When you do multiple mods, especially one at a time, it's subtle changes... but eventually you look back, and the guitar you have is very different from the one it started out as. Sometimes this is a good thing - but sometimes you end up losing something about the original that drew you to it in the first place.

 

Same thing happens with modding cars. I have a WRX that I've slightly modded - and then slightly modded some more. When I recently got in a stock WRX, I remembered all the things I had changed. The car felt different - and while I like all the mods I did to my car, the "original" still has its charm.

 

Sometimes a guitar with problems is better than a "perfect" guitar. That selector switch that only you know how to giggle just right to make it work, the tuner that requires a little trick to get it to stay, the angle you need to face in the room to not get 60 cycle hum, etc etc. These quirks can be lovable attributes of the instrument.

 

So... when modding, you can mod it into a completely different guitar, but you may miss the original. (easily fixed by just buying another stock one! hahaha)

[Still.ill]

I have a question.

 

If your replace the body/neck/tuners/strings/pickups/pots/ is it still the same guitar

[bluesrock70's]

I've done mods on a strat with push and pull tone pots and coil taps. I didn't care for the coil taps, the bridge and neck mod was great and is the only one I still run.

[phil47uk]

Re can you over mod.. LOL. If you want to see modding gone crazy on guitars already worth $5,000 just get over to the LPF..

 

Phil.

http://www.historiclespauls.com/index.php?action=showgallery&id=161&requesturi=%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Dshowmodel&model=%25&orderby=hits+DESC&volltext=

[mikey4402]

I've done mods on a strat with push and pull tone pots and coil taps. I didn't care for the coil taps, the bridge and neck mod was great and is the only one I still run.

 

yep... everyone who owns a strat should add a neck on or bridge on switch to your guitar. It's the best mod that can be done, to a stratocaster.

 

I have both a neck on and a killswitch momentary button. I havnt noticed much of a diffrence in the sound. ALthough that was along time ago.

[FUBTAG]

I have a question. If your replace the body/neck/tuners/strings/pickups/pots/ is it still the same guitar

 

 

Great question.....

[FUBTAG]

 

Just realize that when you do a single mod, you change the guitar in some way. When you do multiple mods, especially one at a time, it's subtle changes... but eventually you look back, and the guitar you have is very different from the one it started out as. Sometimes this is a good thing - but sometimes you end up losing something about the original that drew you to it in the first place. Same thing happens with modding cars. I have a WRX that I've slightly modded - and then slightly modded some more. When I recently got in a stock WRX, I remembered all the things I had changed. The car felt different - and while I like all the mods I did to my car, the "original" still has its charm. Sometimes a guitar with problems is better than a "perfect" guitar. That selector switch that only you know how to giggle just right to make it work, the tuner that requires a little trick to get it to stay, the angle you need to face in the room to not get 60 cycle hum, etc etc. These quirks can be lovable attributes of the instrument. So... when modding, you can mod it into a completely different guitar, but you may miss the original. (easily fixed by just buying another stock one! hahaha)

 

 

This was the point.... though I wouldn't do something to my #1 until I know I liked it on another guitar.

 

On a Peavey I have (but don't use much yet) I want to install a treble bleed and a blender pot. I was even thinking of a circuit board from GFS and that new tuner that is installe under the knobs.

[wagdog]

IMO, yes can overmod, but you can always go back. That is unless you've drilled out some wood or something.

 

My current favorite strat mods:

 

Treble bleed (must have, imo).

Single tone in middle, all pups wired to it

Blender pot on the bottom - fantastic on a HSS too

 

The reason I like these mods is they don't alter the appearance of the guitar. The blender will alter the pot (if you mod the original pot).

 

My hwy 1 has all of the above except for the treble bleed, my '74 has them all and my SRV just has the treble bleed.

[Doctor Morbius]

The treble bleed thread has me thinking.... I would love to do a strat set up with all the mods possible, without changing the appearance (such as no switches), such as the treble bleed, blender pot, circuit board etc... I have to research all the different mods done, but is there a point were too many mods become counter-productive? If so, how many guys have gotten to that point? What did you attempt to do?

I too am wanting to push the limits on a Strat mod. Not sure if I can do everything though as what I'm wanting to try has no 5-way switch, just toggles.

[Wheeler004]

I have a question. If your replace the body/neck/tuners/strings/pickups/pots/ is it still the same guitar

 

This is actually an interesting philosophical question that was first posed by the Greek philospher Plutarch in his example of the Ship of Theseus (sorry, I'm a philosophy major and soon to be doctoral student). We are to consider a normal fishing ship (the Ship of Theseus). It needs repairs and has some parts replaced (let's say the rudder and the sail). Is it the same boat? If so, consider that over time every part has been replaced (every piece of wood and every nail, bolt and screw). Is it still the same boat? This is an ancient philosophical question that seems to apply to the issue of over-modding a guitar.

 

It is my contention that the Ship of Theseus is, in fact, the same boat. While my reasons far exceed the amount of space I have to type, I will simply say that identity seems to be an issue of nominalism- that is, as we continue to call a thing by the same name (while remaining consistent with what is known about the thing in itself- consider this a non-accidentality clause), it persists to be the same object.

 

Anyway, the identity of a modified guitar depends largely on how you view this problem. Also, remember that the order of modification can matter (some mods can affect other mods). In my personal experience, it's best to mod minimally. Sorry for the long tangent ; hope it helped some...

 

--

Wheeler004

[Doctor Morbius]

This is actually an interesting philosophical question that was first posed by the Greek philospher Plutarch in his example of the Ship of Theseus (sorry, I'm a philosophy major and soon to be doctoral student). We are to consider a normal fishing ship (the Ship of Theseus). It needs repairs and has some parts replaced (let's say the rudder and the sail). Is it the same boat? If so, consider that over time every part has been replaced (every piece of wood and every nail, bolt and screw). Is it still the same boat? This is an ancient philosophical question that seems to apply to the issue of over-modding a guitar. It is my contention that the Ship of Theseus is, in fact, the same boat. While my reasons far exceed the amount of space I have to type, I will simply say that identity seems to be an issue of nominalism- that is, as we continue to call a thing by the same name (while remaining consistent with what is known about the thing in itself- consider this a non-accidentality clause), it persists to be the same object. Anyway, the identity of a modified guitar depends largely on how you view this problem. Also, remember that the order of modification can matter (some mods can affect other mods). In my personal experience, it's best to mod minimally. Sorry for the long tangent ; hope it helped some... -- Wheeler004

I've actually spent some time thinking about this too. Although I don't name my guitars, I DO name my computers. When it comes time to mod a computer and it gets a complete overhaul at what point does it cease to be the original computer? What is it that makes up its originality?

 

If I replace the motherboard, processor, and memory but keep everything else original has its essence changed enough to warrant a new name? Or perhaps at least a "2.0" tacked on to its name?

[Wheeler004]

I've actually spent some time thinking about this too. Although I don't name my guitars, I DO name my computers. When it comes time to mod a computer and it gets a complete overhaul at what point does it cease to be the original computer? What is it that makes up its originality? If I replace the motherboard, processor, and memory but keep everything else original has its essence changed enough to warrant a new name? Or perhaps at least a "2.0" tacked on to its name?

 

Ha, that's an interesting modern take- a lot of people will want to say it's the same computer because of the alternative; if it's not the same computer, you have to concede to the fact that there is an exact instant when it ceases to be the original. This brings up an interesting notion of essential properties (what part of a thing is such that if it is removed the thing ceases to be itself). This lends itself to an equally interesting question- if one part of a thing is changed, does that constitute a change in the thing itself? Sorry for the off topic post- I'm feeling a bit philosophical in my posting today

[FUBTAG]

 

IMO, yes can overmod, but you can always go back. That is unless you've drilled out some wood or something. My current favorite strat mods: Treble bleed (must have, imo). Single tone in middle, all pups wired to it Blender pot on the bottom - fantastic on a HSS too The reason I like these mods is they don't alter the appearance of the guitar. The blender will alter the pot (if you mod the original pot). My hwy 1 has all of the above except for the treble bleed, my '74 has them all and my SRV just has the treble bleed.

 

 

This is what I was also thinking was the optimal setup. You don't happen to have a schematic of you '74, do you?

[Doctor Morbius]

Ha, that's an interesting modern take- a lot of people will want to say it's the same computer because of the alternative; if it's not the same computer, you have to concede to the fact that there is an exact instant when it ceases to be the original. This brings up an interesting notion of essential properties (what part of a thing is such that if it is removed the thing ceases to be itself). This lends itself to an equally interesting question- if one part of a thing is changed, does that constitute a change in the thing itself? Sorry for the off topic post- I'm feeling a bit philosophical in my posting today

Well in a human being, for example, I think it's safe to say that if a person loses a leg and is fitted with an prosthetic piece they are still the same person. However, if they have a massive stroke and don't recover perhaps they are not the same person.

 

With things, such as computers or guitars, there is no conscientiousness so removing a processor or pickups doesn't equate to a person losing their mind.

 

FWIW, I came up with an arbitrary system that would allow me to keep the same name when rebuilding a computer. If it has 3 of it's original components it can keep its old name. In retrospect, I should have made that number a value such as 50%.

[FUBTAG]

Ha, that's an interesting modern take- a lot of people will want to say it's the same computer because of the alternative; if it's not the same computer, you have to concede to the fact that there is an exact instant when it ceases to be the original. This brings up an interesting notion of essential properties (what part of a thing is such that if it is removed the thing ceases to be itself). This lends itself to an equally interesting question- if one part of a thing is changed, does that constitute a change in the thing itself? Sorry for the off topic post- I'm feeling a bit philosophical in my posting today

 

ok -- to me - a computer is a non-entity. I wouldn't name it. But I would name a guitar (my 'Baby Blue" for instance) because it has more personal qualities to me... Now if I had a robot I would have to name it and regardless of upgrades it would always C3PO, if you know what mean.

 

I changed the pickups and guard in my Baby Blue and she's still #1 in my world... it's like my wife came home from plastic surgery with a boob job and tummy tuck... still gonna act like her before the enhancements, just more fun to play with...

[Doctor Morbius]

 

This is what I was also thinking was the optimal setup. You don't happen to have a schematic of you '74, do you?

Fubtag, here you go. You can use this diagram and simply add the treble bleed as well as a no load tone pot (delta tone) as they won't affect the rest of the circuit.

 

 

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/pdf/WiringDiagram_Strat_Blender.pdf

[FUBTAG]

Fubtag, here you go. You can use this diagram and simply add the treble bleed as well as a no load tone pot (delta tone) as they won't affect the rest of the circuit. http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/pdf/WiringDiagram_Strat_Blender.pdf

 

you posted that last week right? I thank you for that... that was what got me started thinking about doing this... see -- this board is full of useful stuff MOST of the time!!!

[Doctor Morbius]

ok -- to me - a computer is a non-entity. I wouldn't name it. But I would name a guitar (my 'Baby Blue" for instance) because it has more personal qualities to me... Now if I had a robot I would have to name it and regardless of upgrades it would always C3PO, if you know what mean.

But when I was in the computer field I had 3 to 5 computers networked together in my spare room to help me study for certifications. They had to have names in order to be in the Domain and at the time they had more personal qualities to me.

 

I like guitars better now though.

 

 

I changed the pickups and guard in my Baby Blue and she's still #1 in my world... it's like my wife came home from plastic surgery with a boob job and tummy tuck... still gonna act like her before the enhancements , just more fun to play with...

Perhaps, but I'd wage you'd find things a bit different around the house if you know what I mean.

[Doctor Morbius]

you posted that last week right? I thank you for that... that was what got me started thinking about doing this... see -- this board is full of useful stuff MOST of the time!!!

Yes I've done this mod recently to my Agile Strat, except I also made the tone pot a no load pot. I can't tell much difference when it's on 10 vs 9 though. Maybe I could with some different pickups. I left the Agile's stock pickups in it.

 

A treble bleed won't affect anything so you can easily add that to the mix. That's one I haven't tried yet but I will on my next uberStrat mod. http://store.guitarfetish.com/vimigrsukit.html

[DaveAronow]

Personally, I dont think you can overmod.

 

I DO, however, strongly believe in retaining the stock look of the guitar as much as possible. I dont like to add extra switches, knobs etc, but I do like to have as many options as possible while still retaing a stock look.

 

A strat for example, can be made to do ALOT of things with three single coil pups or two singles and a humbucker, when combined with a 24 lug 5 way switch, and three push pull switch pots. Add a few goodies like different caps, resistors, etc, and you really have an enless list of mods to choose from on what you can end up with in this case.

 

The elecrtonic mods that you do end up settling on though, are an individually personal thing, and none of us can really tell you what you are going to end up liking, wanting, needing, or using.

 

Trial and error my man. Trial and error.

[Wheeler004]

ok -- to me - a computer is a non-entity. I wouldn't name it. But I would name a guitar (my 'Baby Blue" for instance) because it has more personal qualities to me... Now if I had a robot I would have to name it and regardless of upgrades it would always C3PO, if you know what mean. I changed the pickups and guard in my Baby Blue and she's still #1 in my world... it's like my wife came home from plastic surgery with a boob job and tummy tuck... still gonna act like her before the enhancements, just more fun to play with...

 

Perhaps not an entity (at least as a conscious being), but surely you would concede that any thing has an identity. For example, a chair has an identity (as long as it can be identified). This can be said of any singular term (that dog, my guitar, George Clooney- insofar as they refer to one and only one thing). The identity of an object and a human are the same in this respect; they point out one particular thing in the world. With a human being, the question of identity becomes wrought with personal and social baggage- if something about a person changes there is a reluctancy to accept a change in actual identity. However, it seems the same criteria still apply. What properties are such that they constitute a change in identity when they are absent? For the most part, continuity seems to play the largest role- but coninuity of what? Including or excluding any kind of continuity seems to create problems. I guess in the final analysis, the question always remains: of a thing, what is it in itself?

[placeboemotion]

Well in a human being, for example, I think it's safe to say that if a person loses a leg and is fitted with an prosthetic piece they are still the same person. However, if they have a massive stroke and don't recover perhaps they are not the same person.

 

Imagine a Frankenstein scenario, just for the sake of argument. You have an accident. Your brain can be saved. Rather than building a body out of pieces you have one at hand because a person died of a brain tumor. Everything else works and the person donated their body. Your brain is now implanted into that body. You look like the person, have many aspects of that person's voice (though not the same accent) etc. Who are you then? Hollywood movies love this scenario of swapping body and brain (or sometimes some fuzzy version of soul). Even though people who knew the body donor will have a hard time accepting that this body is you, it is the brain that is the self in humans. In other words, there are parts which are more important ...

 

Guitars have no brain. Yet, I would contend that there are some parts more essential (in the literal sense of being the essence of) for any guitar. I believe the body of a guitar is that element that is essential ...

 

 

This is Dweezil Zappa playing that Hendrix guitar. I believe only the body is original (even though I am not sure about that - there must be people here who know the history of that guitar much better). Assuming that it is only the body ... it is Hendrix' guitar isn't it?

[FUBTAG]

Personally, I dont think you can overmod. I DO, however, strongly believe in retaining the stock look of the guitar as much as possible. I dont like to add extra switches, knobs etc, but I do like to have as many options as possible while still retaing a stock look. A strat for example, can be made to do ALOT of things with three single coil pups or two singles and a humbucker, when combined with a 24 lug 5 way switch, and three push pull switch pots. Add a few goodies like different caps, resistors, etc, and you really have an enless list of mods to choose from on what you can end up with in this case. The elecrtonic mods that you do end up settling on though, are an individually personal thing, and none of us can really tell you what you are going to end up liking, wanting, needing, or using. Trial and error my man. Trial and error.

 

I completely concur. It will be all trial and error... or I do it once and live with what I do. But I do not want to change the look of the guitar for just an electronic upgrade.

 

Thanks for everyone's discussion so far....

[FUBTAG]

 

Perhaps not an entity (at least as a conscious being), but surely you would concede that any thing has an identity. For example, a chair has an identity (as long as it can be identified). This can be said of any singular term ( that dog, my guitar, George Clooney- insofar as they refer to one and only one thing). The identity of an object and a human are the same in this respect; they point out one particular thing in the world. With a human being, the question of identity becomes wrought with personal and social baggage- if something about a person changes there is a reluctancy to accept a change in actual identity. However, it seems the same criteria still apply. What properties are such that they constitute a change in identity when they are absent? For the most part, continuity seems to play the largest role- but coninuity of what? Including or excluding any kind of continuity seems to create problems. I guess in the final analysis, the question always remains: of a thing, what is it in itself?

 

 

I think that once it no longer looks as it once was, it no longer is. Identity is something 'outside' in nature, as I can identify my brother without have to hear his voice. If he's in a mask, I cannot. Audibly is different of course, though.. that is able to be changed as well.

 

OK --I am off to the opera... my opening night!

 

Bye guys and gals...