Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 I'd call the Pop bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super 8 Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Oh come on... Michael Jackson and Sinatra are GREAT singers. Madonna is a well below average singer. I don't think she's well below average, but I'll agree she's not great. Madonna's strength was always in her ability as a dancer. She utilizes it well in her performance. She's certainly not alone in being an artist who's vocal abilities were not the greatest of their talents but made good use of them anyway. Pete Townsend comes to mind. Regardless, her vocals serve the song, and that's really all one need ask. You could argue either way whether Jagger is a great singer, but he writes his own stuff and there's certainly no denying that's extremely expressive and he defined rock singing in many ways. There is NOTHING about Madonna that makes her worthy of being compared to any of those 3 so far as talent goes. I think it's great that Mick writes his own stuff, but so what? There are lot's of great musicians who don't write, and great song writers who can't really play. It doesn't diminish them.I agree Mick has been influential, but then so has Madonna. She is also just as expressive. She has always made good use of her medium (music, video, dance) in getting her ideas across. You couldn't find many pop artists today who could say they haven't been influenced by her. I don't see why the BeeGees or even Elvis would qualify for the HoF and she not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super 8 Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Maybe they should call it the Pop Hall of Fame. I don't give a damn what they call it, if they're sticking Soul, Pop and Rap icons in there, Madonna deserves induction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 I think it's great that Mick writes his own stuff, but so what? There are lot's of great musicians who don't write, and great song writers who can't really play. Yes, and then there's Madonna, who can't really do either one. That's my point. You gotta do at least one or the other and be great at it. I agree Mick has been influential, but then so has Madonna. She is also just as expressive. Well we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one, I guess. I think she's very much devoid of emotional expressiveness. She conveys a certain image that apparently a lot of people relate to (for what reason I don't know, I find it stupid myself) - period. That's what she's good at, and she uses video and dancing to get it across. That doesn't make her a musician who should be in any kind of Hall of Fame for musicians. If she's such a great dancer then maybe she can go for the Dancers Hall of Fame... but I doubt she'd rate there either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 All the engineeers I've met or read interviews with who've worked with Madonna says she knows what she wants, has a good musical sense, doesn't give up until things are right - or leaves things alone if they're "wrong" but work - and is very involved with creating the end musical result. Maybe they're all just being diplomatic, but if she is that hands-on, that's what would deserve to be recognized...not her marketing, although she sure has done a good job at that end of things. As to whether she's rock and roll, well, not in the traditional sense. But then again, I don't think Sgt. Peppers would qualify as rock by those standards, either. What I do think is that Madonna has produced some really good material, including "Open Your Heart" and "Ray of Light." Writhing on the floor for the "Like a Virgin" video, though, leaves me cold. Hall of Fame material? I dunno. But the whole concept seems like one of those "50 Best Singles of All Time" issues of Rolling Stone: Stuff that shouldn't be there is, and stuff that should be isn't. I do think Africa Bambatta and Beaties Boys are good choices, but if you're going to get purist about rock, they don't belong there either. And you know what I just realized? I don't care a bit about who does or doesn't get nominated/inducted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 I have to agree with Lee that Madonna does not excel as a singer or a dancer. What she did better than her peers was put together a multi-media package. She was really the harbinger of what was to come in music, for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 I don't really care who gets inducted at this point either, cuz it's been obvious for some time that they weren't really a "rock'n'roll" Hall of Fame (and the Beastie Boys make way more sense to me as a rock act than Madonna). It's more that I really, really can't stand Madonna. And am sick of seeing a marginal talent who's also been a horrible role model for women and a bad influence on a host of other things in the music biz, continue to get any accolades whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 On merit, I believe she deserves to be in it, although there are plenty of other acts - such as Electric Light Orchestra - who arent in it but should be before her...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 What she did better than her peers was put together a multi-media package. She was really the harbinger of what was to come in music, for better or worse. Right, and I'd have to go with "worse." Multimedia stuff is great, but not as a replacement for musical talent. Plenty of people at the time she got going were actually doing great things with video and multimedia and still had oodles of talent - I mean Thriller was out then fercryinoutloud. That's why I can't for the life of me figure out why people like Madonna get anywhere, other than that apparently many if not most people just judge everyone on image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Yes, and then there's Madonna, who can't really do either one. She writes a lot of her own songs. Saying she can't is a matter of opinion ( of which I agree with you)... buit just because I dont care for them doesnt mean that obviously she has enough people that do like them to sell a kajillion records.To my chagrin, I think she does deserve it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 She writes a lot of her own songs. She "co-writes" with her producers and other people... and legend has it that she simply gets writing credit although her actual songwriting contribution is marginal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 She "co-writes" with her producers and other people... and legend has it that she simply gets writing credit although her actual songwriting contribution is marginal. Songwriting still shouldnt be an issue: Thats like saying Elvis Presley shouldnt be in the Hall Of Fame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Songwriting still shouldnt be an issue: Thats like saying Elvis Presley shouldnt be in the Hall Of Fame But again... Elvis was a great singer compared to Madonna (and I'm no Elvis fan by any stretch). I don't care if somebody doesn't write if they sing or play great, and I don't care if they don't sing or play great if they're a great songwriter. BUT MADONNA DOESN'T DO *ANY* OF THOSE THINGS VERY WELL. I don't know what's so difficult to explain about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super 8 Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 All the engineeers I've met or read interviews with who've worked with Madonna says she knows what she wants, has a good musical sense, doesn't give up until things are right - or leaves things alone if they're "wrong" but work - and is very involved with creating the end musical result. Maybe they're all just being diplomatic, but if she is that hands-on, that's what would deserve to be recognized...not her marketing, although she sure has done a good job at that end of things. If she hadn't been as hands-on as she is, and as good as she is at what she does she would have never lasted this long or made the impact that she has. Why do people not see this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 But again... Elvis was a great singer compared to Madonna (and I'm no Elvis fan by any stretch). I don't care if somebody doesn't write if they sing or play great, and I don't care if they don't sing or play great if they're a great songwriter. BUT MADONNA DOESN'T DO *ANY* OF THOSE THINGS VERY WELL. I don't know what's so difficult to explain about this. Thats what Im trying to say: I agree with you but she has a great enough fanbase that shows me otherwise. Madonna fans everywhere can come up with reasons that she should be there and there are a lot of them, enough for me to realize that I know Im not a fan but she is well-loved by a good many in the music public so boo on me................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Thats what Im trying to say: I agree with you but she has a great enough fanbase that shows me otherwise. Madonna fans everywhere can come up with reasons that she should be there and there are a lot of them, enough for me to realize that I know Im not a fan but she is well-loved by a good many in the music public so boo on me................... OK... Britney Spears has a huge fanbase too. You think she should be in the HoF? Is that all that is required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 OK... Britney Spears has a huge fanbase too. You think she should be in the HoF? Is that all that is required? This is such a grey area -- Wanna hear something funny? I dont hate Britneys music -- nor do I like it----- it certainly wasn't original: minor based progressions over a new jack swing beat was made popular in the late 80s by acts such as Bobby Brown, Paula Abdul, Guy, and New Kids On The Block - a well disguised old formula, but she was an icon for her era and, as far as the Hall Of Fame is concerned, perhaps iconography has as much weight as actual skill or talent....Madonna was(is) an icon.....so was Elvis After all, it is the Hall Of Fame and not the Hall Of Talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Well actually she does, Lee....much as it may be difficult for you to take. You already agreed with me that she isn't a great singer, I don't think anyone in their right mind would call her that. And she doesn't contribute much to writing her songs. So therefore... she doesn't do either of them well. Who says? Me. I'm sorry if I feel that if someone can't play or sing or write songs very well they shouldn't be honored as a musician, but I don't think it's too outlandish an opinion. Then you haven't been listening....which wouldn't surprise me considering your tastes. I've listened plenty - and there is plenty of pop music that I like, by the way. I hear a lot of histrionics from her but that's not the same thing as emotion. Of course that can be a very subjective thing, but personally I don't get any emotion from her music, and it ain't because I haven't listened. And that's what I think this really comes down to. You're a purist and Madonna doesn't fit your narrow definition. Narrow definition of what? A musician? If expecting someone to be at least a better than average singer and/or instrumentalist and/or songwriter in order to be respected as a musician is a narrow definition, then fine, call me a purist. I will certainly cop to having a bias against her whole "schtick" as far as what her image represents. There are few people I find more distasteful so far as that goes. But that still has nothing to do with whether she has talent or not - there are plenty of people whose image I don't like or I don't like them as a person or their music isn't to my taste, but I still recognize that they're very talented. Musically, Madonna just isn't. If she hadn't been as hands-on as she is, and as good as she is at what she does she would have never lasted this long or made the impact that she has. I agree, it's just that I don't respect her getting accolades for musical talent when what she's "good at" is marketing and image making, not music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 After all, it is the Hall Of Fame and not the Hall Of Talent AHA!! That's where I've gone wrong. What was I thinking, expecting famous people to be talented? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 AHA!! That's where I've gone wrong. What was I thinking, expecting famous people to be talented? I mean really...... How dare you! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 Let's just say Lee says what I think, only a lot nicer. If Madonna is rock and roll, than I'm a really normal guy. Put that in your pop pipe and smoke it. Pop and rock and roll are not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super 8 Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 You already agreed with me that she isn't a great singer, I don't think anyone in their right mind would call her that. And she doesn't contribute much to writing her songs. So therefore... she doesn't do either of them well. No, I didn't say she was a great singer. I said she makes good use of her voice. You claim she doesn't contribute much to writing her songs. You don't know this, but I think you'd like to believe it. I think she'd have to be quite involved and contributing in order to have had the staying power she's had. I guess neither of us will ever really know since we don't work with her. The end result is that she uses her medium well, and made a significant and lasting impact on music, and influenced countless Pop artists. To me that merits induction. Britney Spears was mentioned. She's sold records. She hasn't made any significant or lasting impact on music. The only person she's influenced has been Paris Hilton. And Paris, as it turns out, is actually better at being Britney than Britney. If we're going to turn this into a skills contest, then I guess Yngwie Malmsteen had better be inducted. He writes his own stuff and he can play circles around just about anyone who's been inducted thus far. But has his presence in music -inspirational to bedroom virtuosos as it might be- really helped to shape music? Barbara Streisand and Celine Dion are both amazing vocalists -whom I'd like to choke the {censored} out of. I don't know if either of them write, but if we're going on skills then they should both be inducted. I however do not see what significant impact either of them have had on music. So I guess maybe we need to define criteria for induction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rabid Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 The difference between Madanna and Britney is obvious; Britney wants to be Madanna. Anyway, I'll put Dave Clark Five at the top of my list. Chic at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 You already agreed with me that she isn't a great singer, I don't think anyone in their right mind would call her that. And she doesn't contribute much to writing her songs. So therefore... she doesn't do either of them well. Well, I think she did write "Lucky Star" all by herself, so it isn't like she's incapable of doing it. And I think she does play some keyboard, bass and guitar. So it appears Madonna does have some musical ability, but she just prefers the process of collaborating with other musicians and producers. I'm not a fan of Madonna, but I'm just stating my observations. Elvis never wrote anything, and was never a great musician either. But he was a hell of a performer and knew how to sell the song. Not saying Madonna holds a candle to Elvis, but I don't think the basis of what she does is all that different. I keep waiting for her to release a "rock" album though; for all her "reinventions" (a way overused word in describing her, IMO--changing costumes and hairstyles does not necessarily qualify as "reinvention"), that's one genre I don't think she's ever really touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 1, 2007 Members Share Posted October 1, 2007 I just can't get worked up enough to care one way or the other. Madonna does have a lot of control in the studio, from everything I've ever heard. I don't know if that's enough, as she is a nominally-talented singer. Problem is, I just don't care. There's probably a lot of other people who are in the Hall of Fame that shouldn't be in there either. I wouldn't know because I don't really know who's in there. That's because I don't care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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