Members Geoff Grace Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 There are plenty of real jobs in the music industry. How do you define a real job? Long hours? How about 100 hour work weeks for months or years at a time? Physical labor? How about hauling huge speaker cabinets, real pianos, organs, and drum sets around from studio to studio or gig to gig? Good pay? How about making six figures or more doing the aforementioned work? Give me a break! Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thrashy Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Not to step on any toes of da pros... This happens when any industry has a sharp downturn. Just because you were good at what you do and people even like your work does not mean that you have a right to continue to get paid to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 No you're wrong. People in any industry have the right to get paid for the work they do -- in fact, it's illegal not to pay someone for their work. That's why downloading copyrighted work is illegal. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thrashy Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 i think you missed my point, I don't mean that you should not be paid for work done. I mean you don't have a right to have a job tomorrow. When industries that once were booming no longer make money like they once did, people lose jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 No, I get you're point, but there is no legitimate downturn in the record industry. The demand is as great as ever -- it's just that a lot of people refuse to pay for the work that created the music they enjoy. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thrashy Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 My take on this is simply that if an earthquake wipes out the factory that you work for and you lose your job,or have to take a lesser position, How long do you curse the earthquake? I'm not passing judgement on file sharing because at this stage it doesn't matter. It is not going away. Napster happened a long time ago and an entire generation now knows how it is done. It can't all doom and gloom forever. at some point someone is going to figure the mess out and make some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 It can't all doom and gloom forever. at some point someone is going to figure the mess out and make some money.And some of the debate here is just how to go about doing that. Best,Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 For what it's worth, I moved from the record industry to film & television after one of the waves of cutbacks in the record industry a few years ago. I saw that this was an uphill battle, and I went where the work was. Now, instead of indirectly getting paid by fans of the artists I used to work for, I get paid indirectly by fans of Dodge trucks, or McDonald's, or any of the other advertisers that pay the networks, who pay BMI, who pays me. The difference is that -- while you can illegally download a CD for free -- you can't download a Dodge truck for free. As long as that remains true, and as long as people watch TV and movies, I'm safe. But that doesn't mean I'm staying out of the debate, and I don't plan to stay out of the record industry for good either. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thrashy Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 you can't download a Dodge truck for free. That would be sweet!! lot of bandwidth though. I don't really disagree with anything you are saying. just looking at it from the perspective of someone that has spent a whole lot more money on music than I have made. Probably why I don't such a strong position, It's not my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 True, perspective not only colors what we see, it also helps motivate how strongly we're invested in our positions. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 Continued:... if you're arguing for higher prices, you're showing your ignorance, you're shilling for the man. After this Lefsetz stuff. I just raised the price of my cd's to $350.00, military personnel and police the double, injured veterans get it for free !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted May 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 10, 2008 After this Lefsetz stuff. I just raised the price of my cd's to $350.00, military personnel and police the double, injured veterans get it for free !!! Melissa Marchant and I are still waiting on our first $10,000 download for that song we cowrote. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted May 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 If you agree with him, then isn't it something of an insult to his point to reprint his article "by permission"?Or, according to Bob, is stealing OK, as long as it's not from him? LOL:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted May 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 This is constructive Criticism here but I see a lot of old Guys (i'm 37) stuck in an old outdated and soon to be dead Paradigm. Gotta read Lefsetz for a while to understand where he is coming from. Thing have changed and we either embrace them, figure out how to survive in the new business climate or to even make a business out of it, or leave the business. This is plain fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 All very excellent points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 This is constructive Criticism here but I see a lot of old Guys (i'm 37) stuck in an old outdated and soon to be dead Paradigm. Gotta read Lefsetz for a while to understand where he is coming from. Thing have changed and we either embrace them, figure out how to survive in the new business climate or to even make a business out of it, or leave the business. This is plain fact. I guess if you're going to be smug and condescending to the "old guys," it's only fair that we treat you the same way. If you were old enough to remember when conventional wisdom was that television was going to kill the film business, you might not be so dramatic about the current problem. You see, television was free and the movies weren't. You could watch television from the convenience of your own home, but you had to go out to see a movie. In a decade or so, there just weren't going to be any movie theaters anymore; and good riddance -- what with the way they treated their stars like property! Sound familiar? Yeah, the movie business had to change and adapt, and fewer movies were released by the major studios per year. But people still paid to go to the movies, and it turned out that people liked going out sometimes. Who knew? When I was a kid, I was convinced that long hair wasn't just a fashion trend -- it was a political statement for a new generation that was going to change the world. My mom said that long hair was going to go out of style, and I thought, she's old and out of touch. She doesn't understand the revolution that's happening. She was right and I was wrong. It didn't matter that she was less in touch with the scene than I was, she was more in touch with human nature and life because her experience was greater than mine. Young people are way too sure they know it all. Life will teach you differently as you age and mature. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted May 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 I guess if you're going to be smug and condescending to the "old guys," it's only fair that we treat you the same way.If you were old enough to remember when conventional wisdom was that television was going to kill the film business, you might not be so dramatic about the current problem. You see, television was free and the movies weren't. You could watch television from the convenience of your own home, but you had to go out to see a movie. In a decade or so, there just weren't going to be any movie theaters anymore; and good riddance -- what with the way they treated their stars like property!Sound familiar?Yeah, the movie business had to change and adapt, and fewer movies were released by the major studios per year. But people still paid to go to the movies, and it turned out that people liked going out sometimes. Who knew?When I was a kid, I was convinced that long hair wasn't just a fashion trend -- it was a political statement for a new generation that was going to change the world. My mom said that long hair was going to go out of style, and I thought, she's old and out of touch. She doesn't understand the revolution that's happening. She was right and I was wrong. It didn't matter that she was less in touch with the scene than I was, she was more in touch with human nature and life because her experience was greater than mine.Young people are way too sure they know it all. Life will teach you differently as you age and mature.Best,Geoff I was counting myself IN with the OLD GUYS!!..but I agree with a lot of What Bob Says. Ain't no Going back Geoff..I'm sorry man because I can really see what's going on out there upsets you a great deal. It will all work out and become more clear in due time I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 But the original P2P, Napster... That was very easy to use. But the labels killed it. "Blender" says it's the biggest record company mistake of all time (http://www.blender.com/articles/default.aspx?key=18696). Even Hilary Rosen says Napster should have been licensed. Come on... you really think all those folks using Napster to rip off stuff wouldn't have just done exactly the same thing if it started making them pay as they did when it was closed down? They were using Napster to get it for free, and if they couldn't anymore, the vast bulk of them would have gone somewhere else if they started having to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 Melissa Marchant and I are still waiting on our first $10,000 download for that song we cowrote. Terry D. The best business is still making Kalashnikovs available to everybody, followed by water, bread, butter and milk. On a recent survey where the question: "What water do you drink?" was asked, 1% answered: "I don't drink any water"That's this 1% Lefsetz belongs to, folks who have zero clue about any business except that he has the nonsense idea that music is worth less then butter. Not to long ago the record company CEO's planed to raise the price of the compact disk to $50.00 per album, of which I think would be a realistic price.One can be happy that he produces something which can't be stolen, copied and downloded by asocial folks who have no money to buy it but are convinced they have a right to consume the goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fmw Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 Lefsetz makes it clear that people should pay for music: "If everyone has access to music at a fair, low price.""The more music that's distributed at a low cost, the better it is for acts ingeneral.""Music should not be free. People should pay for acquisition."I've been reading his stuff for years, and what I think he believes (and yes, I'm oversimplifying) is that if songs were a quarter apiece on iTunes instead of a dollar, they'd sell more than five times as much and actually make more money. He believes that a lower price will increase volume dramatically. I have no idea if he's right or not, but it probably would be a good idea to find something between "stealing" and "a buck a song." I couldn't agree more. I think the impending death of the CD can be blamed on the price of the CD. I've felt that way since the CD arrived in the 1980's. The same holds true for on-line distribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 I couldn't agree more. I think the impending death of the CD can be blamed on the price of the CD. I've felt that way since the CD arrived in the 1980's. The same holds true for on-line distribution. You've gotta be kidding? It wasn't a very high price to begin with, and it's come down in literal dollars since then, which means that in real dollars it's probably about a third of the price as when it came out. It's not tracked inflation like almost everything else. It's one of the best deals out there given that you get for $10 to $15 something that you can enjoy hundreds of times for years and years. This attitude that a CD is ridiculously expensive is some kind of commie fallout from the huge need on the web to rationalize stealing the music so people have convinced themselves by continued repetition that it's really true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 It will all work out and become more clear in due time I think. Whatever will be, will be The future's not ours to see Que sera, sera... That may sound sarcastic, but I mean it sincerely. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted May 10, 2008 Members Share Posted May 10, 2008 You've gotta be kidding? It wasn't a very high price to begin with, and it's come down in literal dollars since then, which means that in real dollars it's probably about a third of the price as when it came out. It's not tracked inflation like almost everything else. It's one of the best deals out there given that you get for $10 to $15 something that you can enjoy hundreds of times for years and years. This attitude that a CD is ridiculously expensive is some kind of commie fallout from the huge need on the web to rationalize stealing the music so people have convinced themselves by continued repetition that it's really true. The first CDs sold for about $29 in 1982. (Source) That would be over $65 now. (Source) Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T.B. Posted May 11, 2008 Members Share Posted May 11, 2008 My take on this is simply that if an earthquake wipes out the factory that you work for and you lose your job,or have to take a lesser position, How long do you curse the earthquake? I'm not passing judgement on file sharing because at this stage it doesn't matter. It is not going away. Napster happened a long time ago and an entire generation now knows how it is done. It can't all doom and gloom forever. at some point someone is going to figure the mess out and make some money. I hope it's artist/musicians who figure it out. It's time for musicians to step-up -become more business minded in order to control/secure their intellectual property and profits. If they don't, another master will come along to screw them and like the others they won't bother to ask them to bend over. I had hoped maybe just maybe Rap music could have become such a model. The establishment was very slow to embrace the genre but still many of those artist took upon themselves to press their own records/tapes, market, and sale their music in clubs, by word of mouth, on the street corner, or out the truck of a car. Perhaps this was wishful thinking. I think it's myopic to think the current state of the music business (downturn in music sales and profits) can all be blamed on illegal music file sharing however.http://2aday.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/record-industry-vs-apple-vs-amazon-vs-consumers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted May 11, 2008 Members Share Posted May 11, 2008 I read that article and he makes a point that I truely beleive that the record industry is failing at miserably. "Why? Because consumers really want convenience at the right price." I agree with him 100%. Downloading is simply more convenient, and most of the time cheaper ($10 for an album Vs. $14-20 for a CD). Honestly if the CD died it really wouldn't be a big deal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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