Craig On The Radio

[MikeRivers]

Talking about Gibson's self-tuning guitar on American Public Media - Marketplace Morning Report 7/31/2015

 

George Gruhn has his say there, too.

 

Here's the URL (text and audio)

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/tech/while-my-guitar-gently-tunes-itself

[Anderton]

Y'know, I really don't like to sound rah-rah Gibson, but I'd be willing to bet George Gruhn - despite his huge expertise in guitars - isn't aware of what the automatic tuning can really do. Being able to switch to an alternate tuning in seconds (and in conjunction with the adjustable nut, convert a guitar to slide guitar in under a minute) is a big deal. Being able to touch up tuning between verses in a song while recording is huge - why would I want to stop recording, pull out a phone, and tune one string at a time?

 

But one of the killer apps for me is coming into a venue or session where there's a piano that's slightly out of tune, but in tune with itself. You can tune one string to the piano, and tell G Force "that's your new standard" and now all the tunings will tune to the piano. You can also do sweetened tunings, and for Swedish Death Metal fans, low C tunings...

 

Honestly, I just don't get the backlash. I never heard keyboard players say "Wow, I hate that these new synthesizers don't have to be retuned every three minutes." To think it's all about people who can't tune a guitar is ridiculous. I definitely know how to tune a guitar, but I can't tune all six strings simultaneously in seconds.

 

What really drove home the value of automatic tuning to me was sample libraries. For the first sample library I did, I spent about 35% of my time tuning because every loop and sample has to be perfect. Now when I do libraries I just refresh the tuning after each take. It's only a few seconds.

 

When the Min-ETune first appeared, the forums were filled with people saying "I don't need that s**t, I can tune faster than that." I had just joined Gibson and said "Hey, let's do a Beat the Robot contest at trade shows so we can find the fastest human tuner alive...we can do a whole 'Kasparov beats Big Blue at chess!" kind of thing, and give the winner a Les Paul Standard!" But after doing Beat the Robot contests at three trade shows, we gave up. No one could tune faster, let alone more accurately. We ended up giving a guitar to whoever could come closest, which usually wasn't very close.

 

As to 1959 guitars being the best ever...well...a couple people have asked me "If you could get a genuine '59 Les Paul or a re-issue, which would you pick?" My answer is the genuine '59 Les Paul...so I could sell it for a zillion bucks, get the re-issue, and have enough left over for multiple vacations in Hawaii. The reality is that a '59 guitar is luck of the draw...some were great, some not so great. I have yet to play a re-issue that wasn't as good as any '59 I've played.

 

Again, sorry for the rah-rah Gibson rant, but I'd be saying the same thing if I wasn't an EVP at Gibson. I would just say it in a snarkier and far less diplomatic fashion

 

/rant.

[MikeRivers]

Y'know' date=' I really don't like to sound rah-rah Gibson, but I'd be willing to bet George Gruhn - despite his huge expertise in guitars - isn't aware of what the automatic tuning can really do. Being able to switch to an alternate tuning in seconds (and in conjunction with the adjustable nut, convert a guitar to slide guitar in under a minute) is a big deal.[/quote']

 

Well, really, how many people actually do that? And those who do, at least withing the folky world that I know, usually have another guitar because they want a different sounding guitar for an open-tuning song, particularly if they're going to play it with a slide. And the big bucks guys have guitar techs who make sure they always have an in-tune guitar. The self-tuning guitar is going to put guitar techs out of work. And comedians, too. We'd never get a chance to tell jokes on stage if it wasn't for tunning.

 

Being able to touch up tuning between verses in a song while recording is huge - why would I want to stop recording, pull out a phone, and tune one string at a time?

 

If I had to tune between verses of a song, I'd get my guitar fixed. Maybe electric guitars with slinky strings are a different thing. Mapes heavy gauge strings never go out of tune. Too badk they don't make 'em any more.

 

Honestly, I've never found tuning to be that much of a problem. But then, it isn't real folk music if it isn't a little out of tune.

 

Honestly, I just don't get the backlash. I never heard keyboard players say "Wow, I hate that these new synthesizers don't have to be retuned every three minutes." To think it's all about people who can't tune a guitar is ridiculous. I definitely know how to tune a guitar, but I can't tune all six strings simultaneously in seconds.

 

Some people did hate synthesizers that wouldn't stay in tune, but not all of them were happy with the whole diffrerent instrument that they were handed when they got one that did stay in tune. I guess a Les Paul is still a Les Paul, with or without the automatic tuners. And actually, I have a phone app (Pitchlab) with a polyphonic tuning mode that lets me touch up tuning in a few seconds by strumming across all of the strings. The TC Polytune pedal is pretty good for that, too.

 

I've heard from someone who said that when there's a lot of noise on stage, the guitar, even with a plugged-in instrument, acts enough like a microphone so that the automatic tuner gets confused. I conceded that the Pitchlab app has the same problem with an acoustic guitar, but you can't have everything.

 

What really drove home the value of automatic tuning to me was sample libraries. For the first sample library I did, I spent about 35% of my time tuning because every loop and sample has to be perfect. Now when I do libraries I just refresh the tuning after each take. It's only a few seconds.

 

Again, how many people do that?

 

When the Min-ETune first appeared, the forums were filled with people saying "I don't need that s**t, I can tune faster than that." I had just joined Gibson and said "Hey, let's do a Beat the Robot contest at trade shows so we can find the fastest human tuner alive

 

What's the hurry? And how many guitars are so perfectly intonated that tuning open strings works for any key? In a guitar workshop at a Newport Folk Festival, Reverend Gary Davis was asked "Why do you always tune your B string a little sharp?" His reply was "Because it's supposed to be that way." But that was when he played in G, which he did a lot. But when he played in C or F, he didn't tune it a little sharp. I know you can program the automatic tuner to be a little off, but it doesn't know what key you're going to play in, unless you program for that, and then you have to remember what buttons to press to get the right "off" tuning.

 

I think this is something that will be of real value to a few hundred people, but not everyone who buys a guitar. And given the time it takes to get it to give you good results with your guitar, plus learning, and the chance for error (suppose the spotlight is in your eyes and you accidentally press the wrong button and start your next tune with the guitar in the wrong tuning), while it may save a few seconds in an hour-long show (you won't get home any earlier or get in another song) you'll probably use up more hours in your lifetime fooling around with it. But, for what it's worth, you'll be more accurate. Just like with compuers.

 

But I really didn't intend to start a pro/com discussion about automatic tuning. I just wanted to let foks know that you were on a national radio program that wasn't about music. It's nice to be recognized every now and then, isn't it?

[AlamoJoe]

It was quite a treat and pleasant surprise to hear Craig on NPR as I was driving in to work today. NPR being NPR, they always have to present a negative to any positive, and vice versa. That's what I most like about NPR though.

 

I'd love to have one of these autotune guitars. But mostly for reasons of intense Lazoid Syndrome.

 

 

[Anderton]

Well, really, how many people actually do that?

 

Well Mike, that's kind of the whole point...you're not going to do open tunings when it's a PITA and takes a long time between songs, or requires multiple guitars, or a guitar tech. The aspect of different tunings wasn't of interest to me because I didn't use alternate tunings. But now I use alternate tunings all the time, and have even come up with a couple of my own, just because it's so darn easy. I have one I call "G Whiz" which is basically a tamboura tuning in G.

 

When Henry Juszkiewicz first told me about the automatic tuning process, I gave all the answers everyone else gave..."I know how to tune a guitar, I don't use alternate tuning, maybe it would be good for beginners, etc. etc." But he was insistent (he can be that way sometimes, LOL) so I checked it out. Now I wish all my guitars had it, particularly 12-string guitars

 

If I had to tune between verses of a song, I'd get my guitar fixed. Maybe electric guitars with slinky strings are a different thing.

 

Definitely, especially if you're into heavy bending.

 

I've heard from someone who said that when there's a lot of noise on stage, the guitar, even with a plugged-in instrument, acts enough like a microphone so that the automatic tuner gets confused.

 

That's true, but there's a sensitivity adjustment for those situations. It has to be REALLY loud, though.

 

I think this is something that will be of real value to a few hundred people, but not everyone who buys a guitar. And given the time it takes to get it to give you good results with your guitar, plus learning, and the chance for error (suppose the spotlight is in your eyes and you accidentally press the wrong button and start your next tune with the guitar in the wrong tuning)...

 

You can do basic tunings with your eyes closed - you just push the on button, which is offset from the other buttons so it's easy to find, and strum. It takes more effort to get an alternate tuning; a disadvantage is that for the really deep functions, you need a cheat sheet because the clickstream is not obvious. But those are the functions you probably won't use all that much.

 

But I really didn't intend to start a pro/com discussion about automatic tuning.

 

Understood, but I'd be willing to bet that based on your comments, you haven't used it. Aside from people who experienced reliability issues with earlier versions, most of the negative comments are from people who theorize that it sucks. But once you have one on a guitar, and tuning goes from a necessary ritual prior to playing to something you get over with in seconds so you can start playing, it's easy to become a fan.

 

I just wanted to let foks know that you were on a national radio program that wasn't about music. It's nice to be recognized every now and then, isn't it?

 

Yes, it is...I just think the segment on negatives would have had more validity if presented by someone who was familiar with the system. I can certainly think of negatives: For example, if the battery dies and you need to tune manually, the feel isn't as good as standard manual tuners. Also, the battery is non-standard because it's so slim, so you can't just pick one up at your local Radio Shack; and although it's easy to access the basic functions, the "pet tuning brain" functions are more convoluted to access. Those are the limitations of the current system, not that pulling out a cell phone and tuning one string at a time is a superior way to get a guitar in tune. The time it took George Gruhn to tune one string with his cell phone is how long it would take me to the tune the entire guitar.

 

I guess the bottom line is when I pick up a guitar, I want to start playing. I can start playing immediately with my keyboards, so it's probably not surprising I'd prefer a guitar that comes close to doing the same thing. The only reason I'm going into detail about this is because I've been using automatic tuning for about 7-8 years now, and my experience is that it makes playing more fun...I like fun

 

[MikeRivers]

 

I'd be willing to bet that based on your comments, you haven't used it. Aside from people who experienced reliability issues with earlier versions, most of the negative comments are from people who theorize that it sucks. But once you have one on a guitar, and tuning goes from a necessary ritual prior to playing to something you get over with in seconds so you can start playing, it's easy to become a fan.

 

It's true, I've never lived with it, though the Tronical booth at NAMM was a regular stop for me for a few years as I watched it develop. I always asked when they'd have it working for acoustic guitars, and it was always "we'll be working on that soon." The idea certainly isn't new - I remember a self-tuning guitar from 20 or more years back that cost about $5,000 and weighed enough so you had to play it sitting down. And every couple of years someone in Hall E has a handheld version.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one who says it sucks (not yet, anyway), but there are all kinds of guitar players in the world, and I'm just one of them. But in general, I'm against things that I have to buy and that I can't see any way to recoup that cost.

 

Though I have a few electric guitars (damn if I know why) I rarely play them, and I wouldn't play them more often if they tuned themselves. I rarely play in anything but standard tuning, and other than just getting some exercise messing around at home (where I can start playing right away even if the guitar is a bit out of tune), I'm almost always playing with fiddle and banjo playersm and they're always tuning when deciding what to play next. If I take advantage of those breaks to check my guitar tuning with my phone app (or even just by ear - how simple is that?), I'm always tuned before they are. The blessing here isn't having a decent tuner app, it's that nowadays everybody in my jam circles uses one or another of those clip-on tuners. Thanks to Alexander Nicholson of Bell Labs who is credited for inventing the crystal oscillator (yeah, I had to look that up), at least they're all close enough to the same reference pitch so that everybody ends up in tune even though we're all tuning to different devices.

 

So the bottom line for me is that I don't need it, and I know so few guitar players who could really take advantage of it, that I just never really got up enough enthusiasm to want to try to live with one and see if it made my life any better. When you make one that I can install on my Martin 000-28 (the guitar I play the least so it's nearly always in need of tuning when I pick it up), send me one and I'll let you know how much value I get out of it. But I doubt it will change my life or I'll start seeing money roll in from my guitar playing because I can tune it in a second or two.

 

Oh, and remember - I'm the guy who doesn't like working with a computer DAW if I can avoid it.

[Cornholio Farquarth III]

The robo tuners should be standard on all 12 strings.

[Folder]

let alone more accurately.

 

I think this is the issue for most people.

 

Most guitar players are sticklers for tuning. A lot of guitar players don't trust anybody other than themselves to tune their guitars so they surely aren't going to trust a soulless machine to do it. Guitars are acoustic instruments unlike synths and most guitarists have their own personal tuning techniques.

 

If it works that's great, but I think most guitarists would be skeptical because of the nature of the instrument.

[AlamoJoe]

Hear, hear! Buy this man a cigar!

[AlamoJoe]

 

I think this is the issue for most people.

 

Most guitar players are sticklers for tuning. A lot of guitar players don't trust anybody other than themselves to tune their guitars so they surely aren't going to trust a soulless machine to do it. Guitars are acoustic instruments unlike synths and most guitarists have their own personal tuning techniques.

 

If it works that's great, but I think most guitarists would be skeptical because of the nature of the instrument.

 

 

Not me. If I had a dog that could tune mine up I'd be more than happy to delegate that to it.

 

[Anderton]

 

I think this is the issue for most people.

 

Most guitar players are sticklers for tuning. A lot of guitar players don't trust anybody other than themselves to tune their guitars so they surely aren't going to trust a soulless machine to do it. Guitars are acoustic instruments unlike synths and most guitarists have their own personal tuning techniques.

 

But that's one of the reasons why I like G FORCE. You can tune a guitar however you want, like sweetened tunings, and store those as presets. So if you have a favorite tuning, you can reproduce it at will. The other problem it solves is the "piano in tune with itself but not in tune with concert pitch." You can tune a string to the piano, and tell G FORCE that's the "reference" pitch.

 

At this point I've been using automatic tuning for about 8 years, and have gotten so used to it that it's just part of playing guitar for me. Every now and then I need to pull out the TC PolyTune Clip-On for dealing with non-G FORCE guitars and while I can tune up quickly enough, it's just not the same thing. Or as my daughter once said when reading some online comments..."Dad, why would someone want a guitar that doesn't tune itself?" I really couldn't come up with an answer.

 

[AlamoJoe]

Your daughter has Spock-Like logic doesn't she?

[MikeRivers]

 

Or as my daughter once said when reading some online comments..."Dad, why would someone want a guitar that doesn't tune itself?" I really couldn't come up with an answer.

 

Cost and complexity. And most likely making friends with a new guitar. Even adding the system to an exisiting guitar is bound to change its feel and even sound, somehow.

 

On the other hand, I think I could once again enjoy sitting by the fireplace playing my acoustic guitar in whatever state of tune it happened to be in if I was sitting by a gas fireplace. Then I wouldn't have to go outside to get a few logs, split some kindling, and tend to getting the fire started. Instead, I could just click the clicker and I'd have a cozy fire in seconds and could get down to business. But then, I'd probably want an instand hot chocolate maker.

 

[Anderton]

 

Cost and complexity.

 

The TC PolyTune I referenced costs $40 street price. G FORCE adds about $95 to the price. If you place any value on your time, the time you save means G FORCE will pay for itself eventually, depending on how much you play guitar.

 

As to complexity, G FORCE is faster than the previous iteration. In a lot of cases you just push a button to turn it on and strum. It even turns off automatically when the guitar is tuned. Using the more sophisticated functions is definitely more complex in terms of the clickstream, but far less complex than doing those operations manually.

 

Even adding the system to an existing guitar is bound to change its feel and even sound, somehow.

 

Put a couple clip-on tuners on the headstock...if you think it changes the sound, then you'll probably think G FORCE changes the sound. I can't tell any difference.

 

The only way to decide whether the concept is beneficial or not is to use it. I'm at the point where I now wish all my guitars had it. Especially my 12-strings!!

[Phil O'Keefe]

For a third-party opinion on Min-ETune, check out my review...

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/expert-reviews/tronicaltune--gibson-min-etune

 

For the record, HC was not owned by Gibson at the time I wrote that review.

[MikeRivers]

 

The TC PolyTune I referenced costs $40 street price. G FORCE adds about $95 to the price. If you place any value on your time, the time you save means G FORCE will pay for itself eventually, depending on how much you play guitar.

 

But I already HAVE a guitar. Can it become an automatic tuning guitar for $95? Or do you mean that the $3500 guitar is $3595 with G FORCE installed?

 

As to complexity, G FORCE is faster than the previous iteration. In a lot of cases you just push a button to turn it on and strum. It even turns off automatically when the guitar is tuned. Using the more sophisticated functions is definitely more complex in terms of the clickstream, but far less complex than doing those operations manually.

 

I wasn't referring to being complex to operate, though I suppose if you want to go from one tuning to another, there's more than a single button press and strum. Or maybe you have to know which button? What I was referring to was that it's adding a bunch of parts to what's conventionally a simple mechanism. More stuff to fail. I know you can tune manually if it's not working. No further comment.

 

 

Put a couple clip-on tuners on the headstock...if you think it changes the sound, then you'll probably think G FORCE changes the sound. I can't tell any difference.

 

I haven't tried that exact experiment, but I know that it doesn't take much mass added to the headstock to change the sound of an acoustic guitar. Honestly, I'm not fussy enough to care myself, but some people are awfully fussy about the slightest change in the sound of their instrument.

 

The only way to decide whether the concept is beneficial or not is to use it. I'm at the point where I now wish all my guitars had it. Especially my 12-strings!!

 

How can I try it without buying a new guitar? Do they have loaners? Playing with it for a few minutes at a trade show can convince me that it works, but I'd need to spend some time getting used to the idea before I know whether I like it or not.

 

When's the bolt-on acoustic guitar model coming out?

 

[Anderton]

 

But I already HAVE a guitar. Can it become an automatic tuning guitar for $95? Or do you mean that the $3500 guitar is $3595 with G FORCE installed?

 

The latter. I think the current price for a complete retrofit kit from Tronical is $199 so that sounds about right...typically list price is about twice the cost of parts.

 

I haven't tried that exact experiment, but I know that it doesn't take much mass added to the headstock to change the sound of an acoustic guitar. Honestly, I'm not fussy enough to care myself, but some people are awfully fussy about the slightest change in the sound of their instrument.

 

I haven't used it with acoustic guitar, but if there was to be a difference, I think it far more likely to influence the sound of an acoustic compared to an electric.

 

How can I try it without buying a new guitar? Do they have loaners? Playing with it for a few minutes at a trade show can convince me that it works, but I'd need to spend some time getting used to the idea before I know whether I like it or not.

 

Well, there are always music stores...

 

When's the bolt-on acoustic guitar model coming out?

 

I don't think Gibson makes any acoustic guitars with G FORCE.

 

[blue2blue]

You're famous now, Craig! Next stop, a feature interview with Terry Gross...