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Gun Owner's Rights Advocates: This is exactly what we are afraid of...

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  • Quote Originally Posted by Mesa4x12er2
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    Weak ass argument. What does it matter what something is designed for? All that matters it what something ends up being used for and the end result.




    Thank you. Besides, a crowbar can take a human life too. Not it's original purpose, but it can do it.
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

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    • Quote Originally Posted by Mesa4x12er2
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      Weak ass argument. What does it matter what something is designed for? All that matters it what something ends up being used for and the end result.




      Lets get back to allowing guns and simply registering them by way of a registry that can theoretically not be later used against gun owners.



      What's wrong with that? We simply hold gun owners more responsible for the guns they own. No more under the table deals. I mean, obviously it will still happen because we can't stop crime entirely, but make the penalties for unauthorized gun transfer so stiff that it discourages the average person from liquidating their collection on Craigslist.



      Say a legal upstanding citizen buys a gun. Later needs money. Sells gun at gun show to a seemingly normal person above 18 years old. That buyer turns out to supply guns to felons by purchasing legal guns at gun shows in bulk and selling them to people that can't legally buy guns. The original buyer unknowingly has submitted guns to the black market.



      Now under my proposal, the original owner can wipe his hands clean knowing the buyer purchased it with background/criminal checks in place and the gun is now documented to belong to the buyer. Should that new owner decide to sell they now have their name attached to the gun. Sure they can still sell it off the books but if the gun is later used in a crime the seller should be charged.

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      • Quote Originally Posted by marshallnoise
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        Ahh, well still, the seller of the gun is not responsible for the end user's actions. I am pretty sure that people have tried to sue gun manufacturers for making the guns that got sold to someone who used them in a crime. That didn't hold up in court. The only way you could get a criminal conviction on a seller of a gun is if they actually knew that they sold the gun to a felon or that they knew the gun would be used in a crime.




        Yes, right now, a seller can't be held responsible for selling a gun that is used in a crime. The idea is to make it so that the seller is liable only if they don't go through the standard background checks, and that the chain of registration is left intact so that we can track down people who are selling guns to people who shouldn't have them. If you are responsible, law-abiding, and sane, this would have zero impact on your ability to purchase, own, and sell guns. But it would go a long way towards giving people who might otherwise be sloppy about storage a strong reason to secure their guns.



        The point is that SOMEWHERE between manufacture and acquisition by criminal, the chain of responsible ownership is being broken. There is no rational argument against closing that chain so we can hold accountable those who break it, and in doing so put the rest of us at risk.

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        • Quote Originally Posted by marshallnoise
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          Ahh, well still, the seller of the gun is not responsible for the end user's actions. I am pretty sure that people have tried to sue gun manufacturers for making the guns that got sold to someone who used them in a crime. That didn't hold up in court. The only way you could get a criminal conviction on a seller of a gun is if they actually knew that they sold the gun to a felon or that they knew the gun would be used in a crime.



          I personally still want the right to purchase a gun through someone in a private sale because I don't trust the government not to raid a gun broker's store and collect sales data. You can call me paranoid for that statement, but I know I am not the only one who feels that way.



          If you go back to the end user being responsible for their actions, then who ever sold them the gun isn't responsible. However, if the person willingly sold the gun to a criminal for the purpose of committing a crime, then they should be held accountable. If the DOJ is willingly arming Mexican national drug dealers...then the DOJ is responsible.



          Our judicial system is already set up for handling these sorts of things though. I don't know why we must place more restrictions on people who legally purchase firearms when the mechanism for dealing with illegal activity is there. It is just a feel good law and does nothing to mitigate occurrences of illegal activity; but it does restrict the law abiding citizenry.




          I'm all for holding the end user responsible. Whoever is selling guns off the books, ie the last registered owner, should be responsible for the crime. Not the manufacturer who sold the gun to a dealer, or the dealer who performed their due diligence, or the original owner who sold it through a gun broker. I want to nail the person placing guns in the hands of illegal owners.



          Aside from paranoia I don't understand why someone would want to keep undocumented firearms. Your paranoia doesn't outweigh the benefits of registering guns from my perspective.

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          • Quote Originally Posted by TheRymanChu
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            Well I could drive a lawn mower to the grocery store, but I find a car that was designed for it, to be a better choice.




            Does it matter that its a better choice if the lawnmower still gets me to the store? End result the same.
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            • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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              Lets get back to allowing guns and simply registering them by way of a registry that can theoretically not be later used against gun owners.



              What's wrong with that? We simply hold gun owners more responsible for the guns they own. No more under the table deals. I mean, obviously it will still happen because we can't stop crime entirely, but make the penalties for unauthorized gun transfer so stiff that it discourages the average person from liquidating their collection on Craigslist.



              Say a legal upstanding citizen buys a gun. Later needs money. Sells gun at gun show to a seemingly normal person above 18 years old. That buyer turns out to supply guns to felons by purchasing legal guns at gun shows in bulk and selling them to people that can't legally buy guns. The original buyer unknowingly has submitted guns to the black market.



              Now under my proposal, the original owner can wipe his hands clean knowing the buyer purchased it with background/criminal checks in place and the gun is now documented to belong to the buyer. Should that new owner decide to sell they now have their name attached to the gun. Sure they can still sell it off the books but if the gun is later used in a crime the seller should be charged.




              I've already said that I'm down with that. I think the private sale stuff should be closed.
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              • Quote Originally Posted by la0tsu
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                Yes, right now, a seller can't be held responsible for selling a gun that is used in a crime. The idea is to make it so that the seller is liable only if they don't go through the standard background checks, and that the chain of registration is left intact so that we can track down people who are selling guns to people who shouldn't have them. If you are responsible, law-abiding, and sane, this would have zero impact on your ability to purchase, own, and sell guns. But it would go a long way towards giving people who might otherwise be sloppy about storage a strong reason to secure their guns.



                The point is that SOMEWHERE between manufacture and acquisition by criminal, the chain of responsible ownership is being broken. There is no rational argument against closing that chain so we can hold accountable those who break it, and in doing so put the rest of us at risk.




                Exactly. I see this as the best way to prevent simple widespread bans that help no one. That's the current proposal that appears to have plenty of support.







                Ban random things that prevent only legal gun owners from enjoying certain guns?



                Or



                Keep guns registered and linked to owners, allowing far fewer gun type restrictions.

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                • Quote Originally Posted by Mesa4x12er2
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                  I've already said that I'm down with that. I think the private sale stuff should be closed.




                  I thought you had agreed to that, which is why I was wtf'ing a minute ago.











                  Well played, Mesa

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                  • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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                    Lets get back to allowing guns and simply registering them by way of a registry that can theoretically not be later used against gun owners.



                    What's wrong with that? We simply hold gun owners more responsible for the guns they own. No more under the table deals. I mean, obviously it will still happen because we can't stop crime entirely, but make the penalties for unauthorized gun transfer so stiff that it discourages the average person from liquidating their collection on Craigslist.



                    Say a legal upstanding citizen buys a gun. Later needs money. Sells gun at gun show to a seemingly normal person above 18 years old. That buyer turns out to supply guns to felons by purchasing legal guns at gun shows in bulk and selling them to people that can't legally buy guns. The original buyer unknowingly has submitted guns to the black market.



                    Now under my proposal, the original owner can wipe his hands clean knowing the buyer purchased it with background/criminal checks in place and the gun is now documented to belong to the buyer. Should that new owner decide to sell they now have their name attached to the gun. Sure they can still sell it off the books but if the gun is later used in a crime the seller should be charged.




                    Yup. You claim to be a responsible gun owner? Fine. Part of that is keeping any gun you buy from ending up in the wrong hands. That means secure it properly to prevent theft, and only sell to people who have undergone criminal and background checks. Fail to do either, and you are accountable for what happens with that gun, because you were not responsible.

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                    • Quote Originally Posted by la0tsu
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                      Yup. You claim to be a responsible gun owner? Fine. Part of that is keeping any gun you buy from ending up in the wrong hands. That means secure it properly to prevent theft, and only sell to people who have undergone criminal and background checks. Fail to do either, and you are accountable for what happens with that gun, because you were not responsible.






                      I'm trying to understand why gun owners, aside from Mesa, are taking issue with this and claiming it will infringe on their freedom. The 2nd amendment does not touch on whether we can or cannot bear undocumented guns.

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                      • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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                        I thought you had agreed to that, which is why I was wtf'ing a minute ago.











                        Well played, Mesa




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                        • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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                          I'm trying to understand why gun owners, aside from Mesa, are taking issue with this and claiming it will infringe on their freedom. The 2nd amendment does not touch on whether we can or cannot bear undocumented guns.




                          I don't know anyone that is against closing this loophole. Only issue I see people having is with registration in itself which I'm willing to do as if someone wants to follow a trail they will find you anyway, but it's because historically this information has been used by governments for malicious reasons. Regardless of the situation in life, the best advantage is the one no one knows you have.



                          I'm still ok with registration, not thrilled with it. I can see the benefits but I can also see how it could be abused if they ever decided to say **************** the dumb**************** and go after people. I am however not even kind of ok with NFA registration which is a totally different ballgame and endgame. None of which has anythign to do with tracing or keeping guns out of the wrong hands.
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                          • Quote Originally Posted by Mesa4x12er2
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                            I don't know anyone that is against closing this loophole. Only issue I see people having is with registration in itself which I'm willing to do as if someone wants to follow a trail they will find you anyway, but it's because historically this information has been used by governments for malicious reasons. Regardless of the situation in life, the best advantage is the one no one knows you have.



                            I'm still ok with registration, not thrilled with it. I can see the benefits but I can also see how it could be abused if they ever decided to say **************** the dumb**************** and go after people. I am however not even kind of ok with NFA registration which is a totally different ballgame and endgame. None of which has anythign to do with tracing or keeping guns out of the wrong hands.




                            Marshallnoise and Larry both want to be able to buy undocumented guns. It's been said in this thread, even in the last 20 replies.

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                            • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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                              I'm trying to understand why gun owners, aside from Mesa, are taking issue with this and claiming it will infringe on their freedom. The 2nd amendment does not touch on whether we can or cannot bear undocumented guns.




                              I think DBlazer is also on board.

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                              • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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                                I'm all for holding the end user responsible. Whoever is selling guns off the books, ie the last registered owner, should be responsible for the crime. Not the manufacturer who sold the gun to a dealer, or the dealer who performed their due diligence, or the original owner who sold it through a gun broker. I want to nail the person placing guns in the hands of illegal owners.




                                See this is the problem right there. You can't hold someone responsible for a crime they didn't commit unless you create a criminal out of the person as you have been proposing. So I will just assume that you want to propose a law that makes people responsible for the actions of someone else.








                                Aside from paranoia I don't understand why someone would want to keep undocumented firearms. Your paranoia doesn't outweigh the benefits of registering guns from my perspective.



                                I still can't get behind documenting firearms when we know, as history has shown us, that documenting & registering firearms leads to confiscation. At the very least, it will lead to taxation just like they do with cars.
                                Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

                                Great Transactions with: blima, draggboy, Pilot08, Elixirmm, Christobevii3, Sixtonoize (actually his friend)

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