Need Keyboard advice please.

[Bobby1Note]

I'm thinking of picking up a good keyboard, mostly so I can have one on hand for the music-room/studio, as well as "live" gigs. I'd like to have a keyboard on hand for those times where a keyboard player drops in for a jam-session. I don't play keys myself, so I'm not sure where to start. I know I'd rather buy "used" than "new", and I'd imagine these keyboards are a bit like computers, in that there's always something new coming out. I'd like something that's well-regarded,,,, something that's fairly recent, and that a pro wouldn't mind playing, even if it's not the latest-and-greatest.

A friend of mine plays a Nord Electro. Mind you, this guy plays with National acts.

Now, here's what complicates things a bit; I'm thinking of taking lessons and learning to play keys. Is a keyboard like the Nord, too complicated for a beginner?

I see keyboards that have built-in accompaniment (bass/drums), are there any pro-level keyboards with those features, or is this more for home-use, with cheesy sound? I want a quality unit if possible. As far as sound goes, I believe I should get something with a good piano sound, as well as organ sound. Not sure if a synth would be useful.

Budget is fairly flexible, but I'd like to keep it at under $3k., and more like $2k. if possible. Can someone shove me in the right direction please?

[Rbts]

When I was choosing a keyboard (which I knew almost nothing about) - I went to the key/synth forum here on Harmony Central - and they were very helpful. That was quite a few years ago. (Just saying). I have been happy with the advice I got at that time - which i just wanted a utility keyboard for adding some piano parts or whatever - and ended up with an Alesis QS 6.1 for like $ 300. Recently I was asked to provide a keyboard for another performer - but he turned down my offer - because my keyboard only has "semi weighted" keys - and he wanted "fully weighted". I looked on the internet - and "fully weighted" keys DO cost "more".

[Bobby1Note]

Good points Rbts. I'll check out that other forum. I've got an old Technics keyboard here (circa mid 80's), and it has fully weighted keys. That keyboard was worth a bundle when it was new ($4500.) but it's useless today. It got damaged, and it's not worth fixing.

[scarecrowbob]

I'm a total amateur kb player, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but you'd get a lot of milage out of going to a big-box music store and playing a couple. These instruments vary greatly in how they feel, what they are capable of doing, weight, etc. and an afternoon in a GC or something will tell you a whole lot.

I dunno if that is a possibility where you are, but even if you have to travel a bit it's worth it.

[Bobby1Note]

Yeah, that's a good idea too scarecrowbob. The closest to me, is Steve's Music in Montreal, and that's an hour away. I know a great guy named Diego, in the keyboard section. In fact, he's the same guy that sold me the Technics keyboard in the mid 80's. Getting him at the right moment can be a problem though. That place is a madhouse at times. I'm a bit hesitant in going there however, since I'd rather buy used if possible, and I'd hate to waste his time.

[WynnD]

 

Originally Posted by Rbts

When I was choosing a keyboard (which I knew almost nothing about) - I went to the key/synth forum here on Harmony Central - and they were very helpful. That was quite a few years ago. (Just saying). I have been happy with the advice I got at that time - which i just wanted a utility keyboard for adding some piano parts or whatever - and ended up with an Alesis QS 6.1 for like $ 300. Recently I was asked to provide a keyboard for another performer - but he turned down my offer - because my keyboard only has "semi weighted" keys - and he wanted "fully weighted". I looked on the internet - and "fully weighted" keys DO cost "more".

 

The Alesis QS8 is a fully weighted 88 note keyboard with a pretty nice midi controller and sounds. I used to have the QS7 and it was just fine. (I'm more of an organist and didn't want the piano feel of the QS8.)

[Shaster]

Quite a few of the keyboard players I work with (and respect) own a Nord. I'm not saying that it's their only keyboard but they seem to like it. The acoustic piano sound might not be up to other keyboards but maybe that's a matter of taste.

Pete Sweetzir (Fosterchild, Long John Baldry) uses one (although he's not using a Nord on this clip)

That's Gaye Delorme on guitar BTW, may he RIP.

This guy uses one http://www.tildenwebb.com/

There's also the Roland RD700 played here by Kenny Wayne

[Keyrick]

See If you can find a used Kurzweil PC3x. Very good Pianos, Drawbar Organ, OK Leslie, a nice mix of Synths, Basses, and Drums, and it is still fully supported by KURZ, with free downloadable upgrades. The PC3x is weighted and the PC3 is not. There is also the PC361 which has the same engine but has only 61 non-weighted keys.

[Bobby1Note]

This is good to have some models as references. Thanks for those suggestions. I'm trying to do a little research.

What's the thinking on "arranger" keyboards? Is this more of a studio-application keyboard? I was looking at a Yamaha Tyros4 earlier.

[Pro Sound Guy]

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

I'm thinking of picking up a good keyboard, mostly so I can have one on hand for the music-room/studio, as well as "live" gigs. I'd like to have a keyboard on hand for those times where a keyboard player drops in for a jam-session. I don't play keys myself, so I'm not sure where to start. I know I'd rather buy "used" than "new", and I'd imagine these keyboards are a bit like computers, in that there's always something new coming out. I'd like something that's well-regarded,,,, something that's fairly recent, and that a pro wouldn't mind playing, even if it's not the latest-and-greatest.

A friend of mine plays a Nord Electro. Mind you, this guy plays with National acts.

Now, here's what complicates things a bit; I'm thinking of taking lessons and learning to play keys. Is a keyboard like the Nord, too complicated for a beginner?

I see keyboards that have built-in accompaniment (bass/drums), are there any pro-level keyboards with those features, or is this more for home-use, with cheesy sound? I want a quality unit if possible. As far as sound goes, I believe I should get something with a good piano sound, as well as organ sound. Not sure if a synth would be useful.

Budget is fairly flexible, but I'd like to keep it at under $3k., and more like $2k. if possible. Can someone shove me in the right direction please?

NORD
http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Home

[Bobby1Note]

Yeah, I think the Nord might be the way to go. Just not sure which model. I'll talk to my buddy who has a Nord Electro. I also need to find out about the Nord Stage.

It's gonna be a little while before I can get this done anyway. February is my usual P/A gear acquisition month, but I really don't think I need more P/A equipment.

[TimmyP]

One of the beauties of the Nords are that they are compact and light. They also sound good.

[Rbts]

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

Yeah, I think the Nord might be the way to go. Just not sure which model. I'll talk to my buddy who has a Nord Electro. I also need to find out about the Nord Stage.

It's gonna be a little while before I can get this done anyway. February is my usual P/A gear acquisition month, but I really don't think I need more P/A equipment.

Don't need more PA equpment?? Is that possible??

[Bugzie]

Just like anything else in this world it all comes down to compromise. Pianists want weighted keys and organists don't.The Nords are a decent compromise with tons of sounds avaialable for free download. The Electro's have a decent Leslie simulation which makes them a hot commodity right now. Hammond also has the SK1 (unweighted) which has a very good set of Leslie sims. I'd love to have the hammond but I already have a Yamaha Motif XS 8 (weighted)that has paid for itself with rentals. For a practice studio I would check out the options that are available. Do you need built in speakers ? Or arw you going to have a monitor for the keyboardist. Watch the outputs on the Keyboard, as you are getting into a decent set of keys before you get 1/4" outputs. With the amount you have available to spend you can get a real decent set of Keys.

[lonotes]

Not to mention, there's a whole world of keyboard controllers and VSTi's that can be had very reasonably. Confused yet?

[mrcpro]

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

What's the thinking on "arranger" keyboards? Is this more of a studio-application keyboard? I was looking at a Yamaha Tyros4 earlier.

Casio's new Privia PX-350 has a rhythm section built in to play along with, combined with USB stick record. If you know nothing about Privias don't laugh - they have gained acceptance from pro players and are in many touring rigs. Just a quick search on this model will probably surprise you.

If you put an Electro on top for Hammonds, Rhodes, and Clavinets you would have a very acceptable rig for just about any keyboard player to jam on. Total cost should be under two grand.

That's still the most common way it's done - combining a hammer action piano keyboard with a lighter action board on top for other sounds. When you try to do it all with one board, one you have to make all kinds of compromises regarding action type and switching back and forth between piano and Hammond sounds when playing live. The two boards that do the best job at combining acoustic piano with a Hammond clone (Nord Stage and Korg Kronos) are also very expensive.

[Bobby1Note]

WoW, that's a lot to think about. Regarding "actions", would it be better for me to consider multiple keyboards? A dedicated piano keyboard with fully-weighted action,,, and a lighter action organ keyboard,,, and possibly a synth? I could build this rig over time if that's the best solution.

[Randyman]

Yes, getting a weighted action if you're just learning, esp. if you're leaning towards piano, is the way to go, and is the only way to go if you want serious players to feel comfortable- there are dedicated organ players that want the "semi-weighted" touch, but they're by far the minority out there.

Basically, you want a good "bread and butter" keyboard. I personally have owned 2 of the top Japanese workstations (they do everything: sampling, sequencing, audio recording, deep programming, have thousands of sounds, etc.) in the last 5 years; I also have owned a few "arranger" keyboards that had auto-accompaniment and built-in speakers. And for the past few years I've owned Nord's top of the line, Stage 88, which could also be called a stage piano as a general term.

For the money you can spend you can get any of these kinds of keyboards. To cut to the chase, you want a stage piano: it focuses on the "bread and butter" sounds that are most commonly used (piano, electric piano, organ, some synth), are lightweight, and has a very simple interface. The Japanese workstations are an endless pit of technology- infinite possibilities and capabilities, easy to get distracted by the technology and heavier. Auto arranger keyboards are a personal choice- they can be useful for learning, I personally get very tired of repeating patterns though, and are not a "professional" choice to offer pro players.

Built-in speakers come mostly on arranger keyboards, but some stage pianos have them as well. The advantages are that with the speakers part of the keyboard body, you feel what you're playing, which adds to the sense of realism like a real grand piano for example. Also, with the speakers on the left/right sides, they're close to you and well-placed, so you can play without making alot of noise and be getting satisfying sound. And of course it makes it possible in low volume settings to have sound without an external sound system. I personally love having onboard speakers; most are decent, a few are really good.

Stage pianos:
1. Piano preference is a huge thing. If you're just learning you probably don't have an experienced ear to recognize what is most pleasing to you. The good news is that the technology has finally gotten good enough that most stage pianos would be acceptable to most pro players as a stand in board.
Mono compatability can be tricky- some boards sound great in stereo, but running from just the mono output can result in a weak sound with some piano sounds- this is worth researching if you're going to use it live.

2. Electric pianos: this gets a little harder-personal preferences vary greatly, and unfortunately many of the stage pianos in the sub $1,000 price range are lacking. Nord is known for their eps, Korg has some exclnt boards, etc.

3. Organs: this is hit and miss depending on the board. Once again Nord is known for good to exclnt in this department.

4. Keybed: to get a board pros will appreciate, it needs to be 73-76 keys, preferably 88, weighted keys. Some keybeds require more effort than others to press the keys, and generally feel/respond different- this is another hugely personal area. I'd say don't worry about it with this board, effectively your learner board, and next time around you'll have a better sense of what you like.

5. Weight and portability: Unfortunately 88 weighted keys means a lot of long, unwieldy weight. Casio is the leader here, with a keybed that is generally appreciated, and they managed to key the weight under 25 pounds- quite the achievement. My Nord Stage is 40 pounds, which is still fairly light, esp. considering it's steel encased. Keyboards are getting lighter all the time, but there are still plenty of 50-70 pound boards out there. If they remained at home, that's not a problem, but you add a 25-40 pound case to put it in, and it gets really heavy, awkward, and sometimes hard to find room for in a vehicle. The other consideration here is that some keyboards put the pitch and mod wheels on the top panel instead of to the left, which saves a good 6-8", which can mean alot on a crowded stage; here again the Nord is great, they put their "wheels" on top.

With your budget you've got a lot of choices! This really is a good time to buy compared to even 5-10 years ago- the technology has matured to the point where you can get decent to good to excellent quality sounds in a relatively light, affordable and easy to use keyboard.

Here's some of my thoughts:
1. A used Nord Stage 88 (Classic/EX/II) is just a fantastic board, pricey if you try to buy new. All the sounds are top notch, and almost the entire user interface is on the top panel, making it the most user friendly board out there. This is their top of the line, which gives you multi-timbral capabilities (ability to play different sounds at the same time), and the keybed is setup to optionally respond to a light touch (the first half of the key travel) to trigger the organ sound, which makes playing organ easier on a weighted keyboard. The Nord Electro has the same quality sounds, but can play only 1 sound at a time. Off of ebay, maybe $2-2.5k for a Classic/EX.

2. Korg SV-1 is a great deal- new you can find them around $1.5k. Plays one sound at a time, looks cool, super easy to use, great eps, good pianos, weak on organ, many people love them.

3. Casio PX-350. This is the price leader and weight leader. For around $800 bucks you get decent pianos, not sure about the eps and organs, good weighted keybed, built-in speakers and weighs 25 pounds. For many gigging players this is a go-to board 'cause it's so cheap,lightweight and is actually a very acceptable board all around- Casio's killing it with this one.

4. Korg Krome- this is just out, combines some of the best features of a workstation with that of a stage piano (it's got a decent onboard sequencer that's relatively easy to use). Exclnt pianos and eps, as well as hundreds of other sounds. At only 34 pounds for the 88 note, this is a super strong contender in the field.

5. Lots of Roland/Kurz/Yamaha stage pianos- altogether I would say you've got 20-25 boards to choose from!

You'll get a lot of good responses if you post to

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...s-amp-Samplers

or to

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthr...eyboard_Corner

[Bugzie]

For keys I don't think you can beat the versatility of the Nord Electro 3 (it may be the electro 4 by now) 73 Good all around board with a ton of decent sounds. It doesn't have the workstation capabilitites, but for a studio you probably don't need them anyway.

[Bobby1Note]

Randyman,

Thank you SO MUCH for that very detailed response and the great recommendations. I really appreciate the work and effort that went into it.

FWIW, I have posted on the keyboard forum, and I got some terrific responses there as well.

It's looking like this project is going to take a bit longer than I had originally anticipated, but that's ok; I want to do this "right". I've been scouring the local Kijiji and Craigslist, and nothing yet, but I'll continue looking. It's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time, and having the cash to take advantage of a good deal when it comes along. So far, my instincts are telling me to buy two keyboards, a Nord piano, and a Nord organ. (an Electro and a C2D????) Obviously, I've got a lot of research to do before taking the plunge. Your recommendation of the Casio PX-350 (or similar) also has me intrigued. At that price, I could pick up one of those for now, and use that until a Nord comes along.

BTW, I just went to Nords' site, and checked out the B3 sounds for the Nord C2D. Pretty impressive sound.

In the mean-time, I'll continue reseraching, and I'll come back from time to time, to ask about various interim keyboards that I find on CL and Kijiji.

What's an "EPS" by the way?

[twostone]

 

Not to mention, there's a whole world of keyboard controllers and VSTi's that can be had very reasonably. Confused yet?

 

 

Pretty much the way I went with buying and using a M-Audio weighted key Keystation 66 and there's tons of free KB plugins (see recording forum) although not the ideal set up for live use but for me just dabbling with KBs and already own quad core desktop I built for my DAW rig along with firewire 800 RME interface which has midi i/o along with Behringer BFC2000 DAW control surface.

 

Might check out the Roland, Yamaha, and Korg KBs make some pretty stellar KBs also which do have onboard sound unlike my Keystation 66 has no onboard sound and requires a computer and DAW software.

[Bugzie]

Better be careful when it comes to keyboards! It can become your next addiction. There are a {censored}load of useable piano sounds available. It's when you start getting into EP's (electric piano's , think Billy Preston) and organs that you get into the expense. Emulating a B3 hammond is huge in the blues scene and no one wants topay for, let alone carry a Leslie speaker around. Hence the Nord Electro's popularity. And I'n not even gonna mention a "ventilator" Probably the priciest stomp box I've run across. LOL

[Bobby1Note]

Better be careful when it comes to keyboards! It can become your next addiction. There are a {censored}load of useable piano sounds available. It's when you start getting into EP's (electric piano's , think Billy Preston) and organs that you get into the expense. Emulating a B3 hammond is huge in the blues scene and no one wants topay for, let alone carry a Leslie speaker around. Hence the Nord Electro's popularity. And I'n not even gonna mention a "ventilator" Probably the priciest stomp box I've run across. LOL

 

I've spent the last few days listening to quite a few samples, and checking out Youtube videos. This is gonna take some time to get done. The choices are bewildering. I'm VERY impressed by the Nord videos. They seem to have "the" sounds, and the customer support. Here's a guy with a few Nords. Listen to the Bosendorfer piano sample at the start of the video. The rest of the video is just talking about Nords.

 

 

Check out this guy, on a Nord C2 organ.

 

[Bugzie]

I wouldn't place to much trust in you tube videos. Spend a day going to different stores and listening yourself. You can adjust any decent keyboards sound to what you prefer. Also the manufacturers set them to what showcases their products the best. That may or may not translate to a good sound through a PA.

[Bobby1Note]

 

I wouldn't place to much trust in you tube videos. Spend a day going to different stores and listening yourself. You can adjust any decent keyboards sound to what you prefer. Also the manufacturers set them to what showcases their products the best. That may or may not translate to a good sound through a PA.

 

 

Going to stores is a bit of a problem in these parts,,,, there are none, The closest reasonably well-equipped stores are in Montreal, and that's an hour away. When the time comes though, I will do that. I've been talking to the guys in the keyboard forum, and it seems like the Nords are very well regarded, and, next week, I'll be talking with my buddy who plays a Nord Electro. Since he plays with national and international acts, he's pretty well connected with the music scene, and he comes across occasional deals. A while back. one of his buddies bought a Nord Electro to do a large gig, and sold it shortly after. That board cost somewhere around $4k with the accessories, and I believe he sold it for $2400. That's the kind of deal I'll be looking for,,,I just have to be patient.

 

In the meantime, I may buy a less expensive keyboard for myself, just so I can noodle around with it a bit. I'd like to take lessons, and learn how to play keys. Some of the guys on the keyboard forum thought that a Casio Privia PX-350 might be a good board to look at. Apparently, they go for $799. brand new. I'm in no hurry, so I doubt anything will get done until at least February/March.